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RE: Spanish Gastronomy
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Spanish Gastronomy (in reply to El Frijolito)
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quote:
Seems to me that the EU, still home to the deadliest E. coli outbreak in recent history, (and perhaps the 3rd deadliest listeria outbreak) - at least in the developed world - is not immune from the occasional food safety issue.
The EU has a raft of ridiculously minute regulations regarding even the appearance of food, including fruit and vegetables. The one I always found amusing was the 1995 regulation that bananas could only have a certain amount of curvature per a certain number of centimeters in length. That particular regulation was repealed in 2008, probably because it made a laughingstock of the EU bureaucrats charged with enforcing it, although I would like to think that someone had the presence of mind to finally conclude it had nothing to do with health and safety.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 12 2016 21:23:01
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Spanish Gastronomy (in reply to Piwin)
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Odd, in China I ate some of the best produce, poultry and fruit I have ever had. Much of Chinese produce is grown in human waste fertilizer called "night soil". In the US I never worry about eating bad fresh food, and in Japan I never worry about eating bad fresh food.
Eating out of cans, or imported food from China, I worry. We learned this in grade school, the ugly rotten tomatoes and peaches sometimes get mixed in canned foods, anything fresh you can see yourself is good.
Worried about chemicals? Buy from farmers who don't use chemicals.
I find it also odd that people in the US who want to move to a more socialist style of governance have never actually experienced a socialist country. Socialist means growing food in human poop, high taxes, and much personal sacrifice for the common good. I wonder how many socialist dreamers drinking the socialist revolution kool-aid in the US today will really abide by that if it were reality?
I doubt the good folks of the US have the stomach for real socialism and the politicians certainly don't understand it. Where I come from in California the reason food is good plentiful is because labor costs and farm to market transportation costs are low.
I really wonder how many Californians who are liberal would really support a socialist agenda if they knew it meant cabbage, carrots and onions would be the only vegetables they could afford? If they paid they paid the Mexican workforce a better wage and and equal wage, vegetables would be a luxury item. Oh, they eat the fatted lamb while they complain bitterly of political injustice.I don't worry about yuppie concerns like is the food bad. I worry that kids in low income areas are not getting good basic nutrition. That is not a left or right issue.
On the topic of jamon, Southern Japan is a pork capital, they have prize black foot pig here.. it is only a matter of time before someone makes a Spanish jamon. There is a Japanese jamon, but like many things Japanese, to the young set here it is not exotic or other, so they spurn it for being old fashioned.
On the other side there is a movement in the country areas that is like the "back to the land" movement in the US in the 1970's. many kids who migrated to urban areas to make a living are returning to village small town areas to occupy the cheaper country side lands and houses. Since there is a negative population growth in Japan many urban kids are becoming fisherman and farmers instead of office workers, there is a social system in place that grants subsidies to young folks who want to redevelop country areas.
And these young guys and gals returning to ancient family digs, well they understand that there will be no low cost Mexicans picking cabbage for them, they must pick the cabbages themsleves.
It is quite admirable and in keeping with the old Vulcan proverb: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Mar. 13 2016 11:47:37
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El Frijolito
Posts: 131
Joined: Feb. 27 2016
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RE: Spanish Gastronomy (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
Do you want to add to that the US doesn't have a gun problem either?
This is quite far off-topic, but I will attempt to address it as quickly as time and my patience allow. Whether the US has "a gun problem" is debatable. The right to bear arms is a constitutional right in the US and is widely seen as indispensable to preserving the freedoms of the people of the nation. Although the US has mass shootings, the US has escaped the high death tolls of the worst of Europe's mass shootings (Utoya, Bataclan) and the most horrifying mass shootings in the US seem primarily to occur in gun-free zones (Virginia Tech springs to mind as an obdurate example). Between this and the spectacularly ham-fisted "Fast and Furious" operation, which sought to curb illicit gun sales in the US by illogically and illegally selling a large quantity of firearms to criminal gangs in Mexico, there is ample reason to be skeptical of the efficacy of federal interests in curbing legal gun ownership. US local law enforcement largely and publicly views legal public gun ownership as an aid to law enforcement and crime deterrent.
These aside, a substantial portion of the US population resides in areas where gun ownership is desirable for protection from predatory or dangerous wildlife. This is not an issue that affects most Europeans. In my particular area, there is significant danger from venomous snakes, mountain lions, the occasional stray wolf or bear, and javelina. I find a gun comes in handy between 2-3 times per year for this reason alone.
quote:
If you look at the labelling guidelines of the FDA, for meat products alone, the percentages required of meat in a product to actually label it as meat are ridiculously low. This problem also exists in Europe, but not nearly to the same extent (not even close).
What is À la Table de Spanghero?
What is Comigel?
What was "Draap Trading, Ltd."? What is "Draap" spelled backwards?
Clearly those regulations are only as good as the quality of enforcement.
Also, I'll observe that the US adopted sound livestock feeding principles that largely enabled the US to avoid BSE - which - with apologies to Peter Kay, does NOT stand for "Bit of Something Extra."
quote:
Add to that that there is a significant share of public opinion in the US that claims the right to eat sh** as if it were something to be proud of and you have recipe for disaster.
This is clearly meant to be inflammatory. Have a cake from IKEA...
quote:
So yes, from a European perspective, US food safety standards are judged very low, at least enough to warrant being reluctant at the idea of just opening the borders to any type of product coming in. To be fair, I suppose it all depends what you're comparing it to. If your benchmark is India, then sure, the US is doing just fine.
quote:
...it's much easier to trace the problem back to food when it's a E. Coli outbreak, somewhat more difficult when it's cancer or other forms of long-term diseases or affections. Give it a few generations..
Ask yourself this:
What was the 'dioxinecrisis'?
What is "Harles and Jentzsch?"
How could these occur given a (superior?) regulatory framework?
quote:
Also, I wouldn't dismiss these criticisms as coming from "people who haven't done so much as grown (sic - my original is 'grow') a carrot"
The sad fact is, a lot of what passes for consumer advocacy in food is scientifically uninformed political activism.
A surprising amount of it is authored by people who:
1) have no scientific qualifications;
2) have no background in agriculture;
3) are primarily supported through a framework of liberal institutions (press, funding-tax, and advocacy groups);
4) are educated as and/or work as journalists.
It is this group that I targeted in my statement.
Prudent questions to ask include:
What are the qualifications of the author(s)?
How was this funded? Who supports it?
What are their goals and ambitions?
What critical reviews exist? What do credible entities consider?
- and if you have at least some science background (esp. in the life sciences, chemistry, mathematics and statistics, surficial geology) -
How does this dovetail with what I know?
Frequently "food advocacy/activism" is directed at aims that have very little to do with consumer safety - but have much more to do with political goals and "environmental" activism. There are profit and association motives for the originating producer, and frequently material and policy objective gains to be had by the backing entities.
You may be interested, as a by-note, to discover that "factory farms" is in fact a term credited to Ruth Harrison, a British citizen who was a mid-century animal welfare activist and author. The term was used (derisively) to describe livestock management conditions in Britain at the time.
Her qualifications were that she was educated in English, and studied drama at RADA. Later she worked for an architectural firm. Subsequently she became involved with animal welfare activism.
Her supporters included Rachel Carson, who had a great deal to do with enhancing her visibility and reputation. Rachel Carson is best known for "Silent Spring," publication of which is credited with widespread rejection of the pesticide DDT (and not as often, credited with the loss and impairment of tens of millions of lives in the developing world to mosquito-borne diseases). The effect of her work is a profound example of the impact of panic over sound policy, or failure to consider all consequences beyond a narrow objective.
quote:
And we'll just pass over the fact that several groups of scientists have warned against a repeat of the "dust bowl" since little to nothing has changed in the deep plowing practices in the Midwest grasslands.
Equally, scientists have asserted that a repetition of the "Dust Bowl" is unlikely. Also, many who support the idea that a repetition is inevitable are global warming proponents, and global warming is at best a debatable hypothesis that many scientists continue to express skepticism over. In the US, Al Gore is not considered a scientist, with good reason.
quote:
unless you intend to also dismiss the voices of numerous local farmers in the US, many of whom had to close shop as larger corporations brought down prices
As a small-scale agricultural producer myself, I guarantee you that my concerns and those of my fellow small-scale producers are almost entirely with excessive tax burdens (which has probably done more to reduce farming involvement in the US than any other single thing), and the actions, regulations, and sometimes overt misbehavior of federal TLAs (three-letter agencies). Beyond that we are concerned about "environmental" activists pursuing industry-killing agendas (frequently and ironically at the detriment of the environment itself), misleading and uninformed media coverage, and propaganda masquerading as sound scientific research.
quote:
But as usual, a large business manages to pass off as the victim, as the "little guy", when the actual little guys will just have to drink up their polluted effluents and somehow try to survive.
Actually one of the biggest polluters in the region of the US where I live is the EPA itself. I am far more concerned about a criminalized, weaponized, politicized and power-hungry EPA - a clear and present threat - than I am about some industrial bogeyman.
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Date Mar. 13 2016 18:27:20
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El Frijolito
Posts: 131
Joined: Feb. 27 2016
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RE: Spanish Gastronomy (in reply to estebanana)
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Quick, someone call Marta Angulo.
I made three assertions involving global warming:
quote:
1. Also, many who support the idea that a repetition is inevitable are global warming proponents, and
2. global warming is at best a debatable hypothesis that many scientists continue to express skepticism over.
3. In the US, Al Gore is not considered a scientist, with good reason.
(1.) is accurate, although "many" probably overstates the case.
(3.) is perhaps slightly dubious. It would have been far more accurate to simply say that Al Gore is not a scientist. Neither is he a computer engineer.
So we are left with (2)."global warming is at best a debatable hypothesis that many scientists continue to express skepticism over."
"Global warming" is frequently, and in this case, shorthand for "anthropogenic global warming," also referred to as "climate change," which in turn is usually shorthand for anthropogenic climate change.
Problems with assertions that man is a primary contributor to global warming include the following:
1) The length of the historical record of direct observation (approximately only 150 years or so), compared with the history of climate change phenomena on earth (4.6 billion years). The sample is not representative, and is disturbingly small relative to the geologic record to make such a sweeping generalization. It is even a
disturbingly small sample relative to the record of man on earth.
2) Failure to consider and quantify other likely contributors to climate change over time- including extraterrestrial (e.g. solar phenomena and impact bodies) events and geologic activity. How can you quantify human contribution to global warming if you can't quantify the impacts over time of other contributing factors?
3) The necessary use of "proxy data" to fill in the substantial gaps in the historical record without analysis of observation impact (where taking the observation contaminates the observation itself) or even discussion of correlation to the contested phenomena.
4) Known problems in data gathering (including issues with locating measurement stations appropriately, localized temperature phenomena, consistency in the collection of data and abandonment of weather stations, among others). This report discusses some issues:
Is the US Surface Temperature Record Reliable?
...among others.
The behavior of some of the scientists involved has certainly invited skepticism:
5) The adulteration of data to "make the case."
6) Selective interpretation of data (including, but not limited to, leaving out chunks of data that do not conform to the hypothesis, such as the infamous "medieval warming period").
7) The representation of opinion on the matter (the bizarre claim that 97% of scientists agree has been repeatedly asserted and repeatedly debunked -even some prominent proponents have rejected some "proofs" of this quack assertion as fundamentally unscientific).
8) Squelching contravening opinion (Climategate provided clear evidence of this).
9) Dramatization of the assertions without meaningful consideration of the hypothesis. In science, studies are conducted, data evaluated and conclusions drawn. Real scientists don't make Irwin Allen movies or conduct "sad face photo sessions." They sure don't insist on unproven hypotheses as facts, or consider consensus as a substitute for evidence.
Sea level change has occurred before and is probably not anthropogenic, according to Dr. Fred Singer, among others.
I will not dignify the idea that "the evil conservatives did it" with any response other than ridicule. The Koch Brothers are not the root of all evil in the universe.
The EPA caused one of the worst toxic spills in the US in recent history. There is no question that EPA's WOTUS legislation is overreaching. Hopefully it will never be implemented.
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Date Mar. 13 2016 19:53:49
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Spanish Gastronomy (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
Given the extent is has taken with the current migrant crisis, a collapse of the EU is for the first time looking possible. Why anyone wants to go back to a pre-WWII nationalistic version of Europe is beyond me. But it seems they're going to get their wish, for better or most likely for worse. PS: In case anyone's wondering what the point of these marketing standards are, part of it is to ensure that there is a cheap alternative for consumers that still maintains decent quality standards, but mainly its intent is to protect the farmers by ensuring that they don't have to sell high quality products at the lowest possible price just to be able to compete on the market. It's an official labeling system, akin to labels awarded by NGO's or in some cases corporate institutions, though arguably more reliable, at least more reliable than the corporate labels since they don't rely on vested interest.
The current crisis of illegal migrants attempting to enter EU countries is one of the EU's own making that can largely be laid at the feet of Germany and Sweden. When Germany and Sweden both advertised a virtual "open door" policy toward the migrants, they created the magnet that guaranteed a continuing flow of illegal migrants attempting to enter the EU. At first they made no attempt to distinguish between genuine "refugees," and migrants fleeing chaos and economic distress. (Note: The term "refugee" is legally defined by the United Nations as "A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it.")
Clearly there are genuine refugees among the migrants. But just as clearly there are many from Afghanistan, Syria, various African countries, and others who are economic migrants or just trying to leave general upheaval, neither of which fits the definition of "refugee." That EU countries are now closing the door to this flow was predictable and could have been avoided if the EU had adopted measures to accept those migrants who are genuine refugees and return those who are not.
Actually, the marketing standards you mention are the product of "vested interests," i.e., the very farmers you mention whose income they are meant to protect. Just as the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) was always meant to protect the vested interests of French farmers. In fact, farmers in the U.S. are a huge vested interest themselves. Just think of the subsidies that go to U.S. farmers, just as they do to French farmers. Agriculture is one of the most economically distorted endeavors in most countries and hardly an example of the way the free market should operate.
Finally, my reading of EU sentiment today is not to go back to a pre-WWII nationalistic version of Europe. No one is talking about raising tariff barriers or building Maginot Lines. My sense is the very regulatory minutiae you mention in your comment is in large part driving the desire for less oversight from Brussels. That, the Euro crisis (Greece and the Southern Tier), and the inability of the EU to control its peripheral borders (leading to internal border closures) are all driving the sense that the EU is not equipped to adequately handle crises, although it does seem adept at labeling bananas.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 13 2016 19:55:29
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Spanish Gastronomy (in reply to Piwin)
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Lenny,
You have a point there about the detouched consume.
Instead of having folks adapted to the cruelty of sloughtering (which I have done once too, because of hunger), I would prefer the omitting of agony altogether and enhanced efforts towards artificial meat, which would be the way of suiting our potential intellect.
Piwin,
You hit the nail on it´s head about the psychological background of insatiability.
A healthy mind cannot model / fathom such compensational desperation.
Yet, it must be illuminated, as this ordinary bit is the fuel rod of destruction.
-
El Frijolito is correct with his pointer to the food situation and Bill about insane norming in the EU.
The latter being background for a great percentage of agarian product being sorted out at harvest already / contributing to the 50% destruction of produced food.
Regarding the first point, hence scandals in the grocery market; indeed they are happening all the the time in the EU.
The more lucrative the product the worse. Hence olive oil blended with mineral oil for instance, and accordingly as well the countless cases of product faking or usage of rotten or contaminated material in the meat industry.
In fact the routines in this market led to an administrative change in the German department of food supervision (as I mentioned once on the foro before). Eventual findings of Inspectors returning to the department are not anymore passed on to higher offices, making their way through the department. Instead a rule has been set up to have findings passed directly to the chief office.
Believers of labels are invited to ponder on the question, why that.
And inspectors reluctant to accept the routine of suppression, trying to get their findings to the public, at times are being found dead in some cowshed. I suppose this one to be needing no brain-storming.
So, El Frijolito is right about striking conditions in the EU food sector. However, we need to discern whether discussing official or inofficial conditions, practice or regulation.
Losening the latter certainly won´t be making things any better.
-
Disclaimer: Havn´t read second page yet.
Ruphus
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Date Mar. 14 2016 10:59:11
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Spanish Gastronomy (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
I like gambas al ajillo.
Marta and I visited Brazil for a month over Christmas of 1979 and into January of 1980, spending quite a bit of time in the Northeast. We spent a few days in Salvador de Bahia, and it was there at a restaurant called "Casa de Gamboa" that we had the tastiest, most succulent gambas al ajillo we had ever tasted, before or since. The Casa de Gamboa was a beautiful restaurant that had once been a private mansion during Portuguese times. The food was exquisite, and the gambas al ajillo were to die for. I still salivate when I think of that evening.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 14 2016 15:40:17
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Don't know if there's an equivalent in English. 
I asked her what the secret ingredient was. She replied "love". I asked her if "love" was slang for a f**load of oïl". To which she laughed and said something to the extent that I didn't have the cojones for Andalucian cooking.