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RE: How many languages do you speak?? (in reply to tijeretamiel)
So far were averaging about 2.9 languages. Good for us lol that makes me below average with 2. When I was a child I thought I had a pretty good command of Gaelic, then recently I ran into a Gaelic speaker and could barely get through introductions.
RE: How many languages do you speak?? (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
Got it. So like a higher register? What I've found is that many people have their own linguistic subset within their field of specialty. Even people in marketing speak in a way that isn't necessarily understandable to an outsider, no matter how litterate he may be. And so with all fields of expertise. Oddly enough, when you're a foreigner learning a language, you often learn the higher registers better than the more colloquial ones. Though I don't really speak it, I understand Goethe better than a cab driver in Köln.
That´s alright, I see; but I was thinking of even just grammatically correct language without yet consideration of special terminology. -
I found some real gems in this thread.
Like:
quote:
ORIGINAL: El Frijolito
... housomeiver ...
or
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
I don"t speak other languages. I jsut speak louder and LOUDER in English until they go away.
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: How many languages do you speak?? (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
And English
Done. Thanks.
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: How many languages do you speak?? (in reply to El Frijolito)
quote:
quote:Do English and American count as different languages? Not according to G.B. Shaw...
G.B. Shaw described America and Britain as "two nations divided by a common language." While he mentions the "common language," he notes that it divides the two nations, leaving his meaning somewhat ambiguous. While the phrase most often is attributed to Shaw, it has been attributed to Oscar Wilde as well.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: How many languages do you speak?? (in reply to Leñador)
I am often amused, and sometimes irritated, when I hear someone say Spanish is an easy language to learn. Spanish, spoken correctly, uses the subjunctive mood probably 60 percent of the time, whereas in English we rarely use the subjunctive. I have heard many people speaking Spanish who have not learned to speak using the subjunctive well, if at all. They speak and understand Spanish, and they are understood by others, but a refined speaker of Spanish notes immediately that they are not speaking correct Spanish. I would say that Spanish is an easy language to learn to speak poorly. But like any other endeavor, it takes work to nail the language down correctly.
The same goes for Malay and Indonesian, which are 80 percent the same, but that 20 percent difference can get one in trouble if one is unaware of the differences. Also, they use prefixes and suffixes that can mean anything from greater emphasis to a different meaning. And even when the root word without the prefix or suffix can be understood, proper use means all the difference to the refined (particularly Javanese) ear. In fact, Malay and Indonesian have a phrase, "berbudi bahasa" ("bahasa" means "language"), that describes someone who is refined, graceful, and well-mannered. And it is largely defined by the correct use of language.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: How many languages do you speak?? (in reply to El Frijolito)
I can't stand the laugh tracks but the content is funny
The issue of fluency is a curious one. Let's say it's a continuous spectrum from perfect gibberish to full mastery. People tend to define fluency in their own way, and, since we're human, we tend to flatter ourselves on how well we speak. English interpreters are often confronted with the following problem: to reduce costs, participants are asked whether they are fluent in English. Most of them say yes, so you bring in an English interpreting team rather than say, a Russian, Japanese and Italian (or whatever the native tongues of the participants are). Perhaps they are to an extent pressured to say they speak English, or perhaps they really believe they do. But you often end up with people who are barely intelligible and the interpreters simply can't make out what they're trying to say. The most common case is a person using the syntaxic structure of his original language but putting English words on it. The result is non-sensical. Perhaps this way of operating is enough when there are circumstancial clues that can help you understand what the speaker is getting at, but in a conference setting it just isn't enough. In any event, I've seen quite a few conferences simply fail to achieve their purpose because of this. Communication collapses.
I once met a colleague who explained to me that he spoke better English than most Americans. His mother tongue was Russian and he had learned English as a second language. His point was that he had learned quite a lot more of literary English than most. Fine. That being said, were you to introduce him to any American, no matter how educated or not they are, they would've know in less than 5 seconds that he wasn't a native English speaker. John Updike wrote about the purpose of language being to be able to distinguish between the members of the tribe and the outsiders (like the biblical story of the shibboleth). It oddly serves two contradicting purposes: bringing people together through communication but separating them by giving us a quick ability to recognize who is "one of us". Many of my colleagues considered me bilingual in French-English (American parents, grew up in France). Which I suppose I am to the extent that anyone can really be bilingual but the reality of it is that any American will be able to tell at some point in our conversation that something is "off" in the way I speak. Anyone that has several mother tongues will have a predominant language. They can just tell, even if the accent is right, the grammar is right, etc. Part of it is the choice of words, part of it is the common culture that people of any given language share. And this is incredibly difficult to define, because obviously everyone has their own individual set of cultural references. But they are certain things that everyone is somehow expected to know, whether it be words, concepts, historical facts, idioms, etc (or whether it be to not overuse the subjunctive "whether it be" ). I never felt more foreign in the US than in the 6th grade when I raised my hand to ask who "the lady who sat in the front of the bus" was and all the student's heads shot around and stared (glared) at me. I could've told you all about Schoelcher but nothing about Rosa Parks...
Anyways, that obviously doesn't relate much to the issue of fluency as meaning just being able to get through a daily conversation, it was just a few thoughts on what the limits of fluency are and the impossibility of ever becoming "as good" as the native speakers. The way I see it, it's just about owning up to your own heritage and making it into something personal (the same way that I know I'll never play flamenco in the same way as an Andalusian gipsy would, but I don't claim to, nor do I aspire to it, I just do my own thing and that's pretty much all anyone can ask from anybody).
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: How many languages do you speak?? (in reply to Piwin)
lots of european languages in my family ... my Dad says he speaks English and Rubbish . . i see your not counting Klingon ....the best language for Bulerias ... come on ....
RE: How many languages do you speak?? (in reply to El Kiko)
This is the part where I admit having spent 20 minutes trying out famous flamenco names in an online Klingon name generator... My favorite is Tanang Du'Ralle of the House of Picadomeister, a.k.a. Gerardo Nunez
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: How many languages do you speak?? (in reply to tijeretamiel)
American Southwest Hispanic English, lol. My Spanish is passable and I can read. For a doctorate two languages are required. I passed Spanish and French. I don't dare speak French although I occasionally read some French studies on Arabic music. Very difficult reading.
RE: How many languages do you speak?? (in reply to Piwin)
"Oh, you like that sort of thing, eh?"
The Catherine Tate Interpreter sketch put me in mind of an episode of Blandings (S1, ep.3) where Freddy Threepwood (original author Wodehouse had a humorously Dickensian facility with names) brings an exotic Portuguese dancer from the Pink Pussy Club back to the family shack. For reasons best left to experts in plot exposition, several conversations in fake Portuguese ensue amid other hilarity.
I'd post the relevant scenes but I can't find them online short of posting the entire episode, which I as of yet have only located in a mildly sped-up version which gives the impression that everyone on the estate is on healthy doses of Benzedrine.
RE: How many languages do you speak?? (in reply to tijeretamiel)
quote:
For a doctorate two languages are required.
Really?? My lady has her doctorates and I don't think she ever took foreign language.....she can speak Vietnamese just from her parents speaking it to her but I know for a fact she can't read it.
If someone says speaking Spanish is easy and they don't use verb tenses they're a moron, you don't speak Spanish if you can't use proper verbs. I went to a Mexican restaurant with someone once who began speaking the worst Spanish EVER to the waiter who was CLEARLY born here. I wanted to die, I could not slump in my chair enough. Americans speaking terrible Spanish embarases me. I know I should applaud them for trying but it's painful to watch when it looks that uncomfortable and it's completely unnecessary. I generally won't even speak Spanish until someone speaks it to me first or is seriously struggling with English. I fear the dreaded "Ju no think I espeak English!?!?". Got that once as a kid and hated it.
Blandings! Thanks for the tip, didn't know about that show, now I like it!
RE: How many languages do you speak?? (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
Really?? My lady has her doctorates and I don't think she ever took foreign language.....she can speak Vietnamese just from her parents speaking it to her but I know for a fact she can't read it.
Not all programs require it. To me it seemed to just be another way for the university to make some extra money as grad students struggle to become proficient in a third language. The thing is, if you don't practice something everyday, whether it's guitar, languages, or musical analysis, you will not advance.
Blandings? OK Cool. I don't care if I read another book.
RE: How many languages do you speak?? (in reply to El Frijolito)
quote:
Anyway, when you can, Blandings, S1 Ep.3.
Thanks! I'll check it out.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: How many languages do you speak?? (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
I am often amused, and sometimes irritated, when I hear someone say Spanish is an easy language to learn.
The truth can be seen with the textbooks. For English the vocabulary books are thick while grammar books are being relatively slim. For Spanish it is vice versa.
The Spanish irregular verbs alone suffice to kill an ox.
Worst of all French, where phonetics will tell nada about how the thing might be written. And to make it even worse half of the written letters are not being pronounced.
A linguist once explained to me how the latter came about. Unfortunately I forgot what he said, though it must have been interesting.
Here it is where languages like Spanish (or Latin for that matter) or German shine; for most it is clear by phonetics how things are written. -
I managed with two foreign languages to be speech wise indescernable to natives. One in childhood twice (no big deal) and one at the age of 24 or so.
Today that flexibility, in both regards, associative skills (comprehending local routines of relating or metapher) as well as phonetics, has long diminished.
But seems as if I´m still relatively good with improvising generally understandable allegory and example. That´s at least what Ticos remarked, considering my slim vobaluary with which yet complex contents were conveyed.
Posts: 6415
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From: England, living in Italy
RE: How many languages do you speak?? (in reply to Leñador)
I can recommend DuoLingo for learning or brushing up on a language. Mostly aimed at writing and reading and a little pronunciation, it is crowd-sourced, self-paced and completely free.
I am doing French and Spanish concurrently at the moment, to get back some skills in grammar, gender and verb conjugation. Then I will try Italian.
RE: How many languages do you speak?? (in reply to tijeretamiel)
Try Japanese, it's very difficult. First you don't get a Romanized alphabet so everything looks like Klingon on the page or street signs.
It is difficult to pronounce, difficult to remember again because you have to learn three ways of writing, Kanji which in from Chinese, Hiragana and Katakana, and then there are Romanized systems that are phonetic, but most text and signage is in Hiragana or Kanji or combination of both in the same text. Learning words from the environment of text around you means you have to know four systems of writing that take years to learn. So there is literaly nothing you can pick up just walking down the street looking at signs a shops like you can with other languages of European origin.
Then on top of that the Kanji each have several meanings that change with the context of the conversation. A kanji can look the same but mean two, three ot several things.
Then there are different ways to address older or younger people that thankfully outsiders get excused from really knowing,but if you mess it up it sounds really bad.
If Spanish or French are level One in difficulty Japanese is level 4. Really a not fun language. I don't enjoy it at all and French would be a dream by comparison.
I lie awake at night wishingI was tasked with an easy language like French or Russian. I hate Japanese.
The native Spanish speakers in the US need to cut white people some slack. If nn native speakers are trying to speak they should be nice to them. I suffered a great deal not being treated well by native speakers in my own family because I could not keep up. It really set back my interest in language. Even if they don't speak perfectly in the subjunctive they should not be made fun of or looked down on. They are extending themselves in a language they really don't have to learn and much their credit they take it on. I really used to hate it when native Spanish speakers would cut off a conversation and sarcastically say "I speak English you know". A better way to get that across is to say something like, Ok I get it you want to learn more, but lets talk a bit in each language. A lot of native Spanish speaker in the US are just rude about it and use it as a way of putting down gringos. It sucks. If you are a gringo and you are hanging out with Spanish speakers you are not a spy for the KKK.
Another odd thing typically Japanese is to not tell anyone they know English.They let you butcher Japanese for a couple hours, week or even months before they respond in English. It used to piss me off a lot until I realized they are scared **** less of speaking English to a native speaker.
RE: How many languages do you speak?? (in reply to Ruphus)
quote:
Worst of all French, where phonetics will tell nada about how the thing might be written. And to make it even worse half of the written letters are not being pronounced.
I wouldn't sell English short on how difficult and sometimes "nonsensical" its spelling is. Try this famous poem The Chaos by Gerard Nolst Trenité.
Or there is the famous "word" ghoti, meant to show the idiosyncracies of English spelling by respelling the word fish. (gh from "enough"; o from "women" and ti from "nation").
The main reason spelling in French is so weird is that the written form has not changed much since the early Middle-Ages, whereas pronunciation has changed a lot. Basically put, written French is an open history book where you can directly look at how the language used to be pronounced. This has at least the benefit that it is fairly easy to read works in Old French even today (the differences between modern English and Old English are much bigger for instance). The debates around reforming French orthography often pit the following two sides against each other: those who think an in-depth reform should be conducted so as to ensure a closer Relationship between spelling and pronunciation, and thereby facilitate the access to and learning of written French by children; and those who believe that any reform of French orthography would be an assault on French History, since it would erase many of the historical clues that French orthography contains (and of course, a wide spectrum of views between the two).
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: How many languages do you speak?? (in reply to tijeretamiel)
quote:
The native Spanish speakers in the US need to cut white people some slack.
I hear you for sure, and friends and coworkers is one situation, but walking up to a brown McDonalds employee and saying "yo keyarrow un Big Mac." comes off as kinda racist. I do have a lot of pocho friends who don't speak Spanish and they get A LOT of heat from paisas about it. And they'll never learn because they get the "your Mexican you should know this already!" from paisas. As a little white kid I was never afraid to say things wrong so I learned tons.
RE: How many languages do you speak?? (in reply to Escribano)
quote:
I can recommend DuoLingo for learning or brushing up on a language
I can't speak to the quality of DuoLingo for language learners but I would like to highlight the ethical issues behind it, since many simply won't be aware that they exist. IMO, DuoLinguo is another confirmation of that saying "if it's free, then you're the product". There really is no such thing as a free lunch. The original businessmodel (though perhaps this has changed) was to make learners work on actual bits that need translation. These translations would then be reviewed by more experienced learners and then provided to the customer who requested the translation to DuoLinguo. It's a slick move, and perhaps at first sight it seems to make sense since the learners are happy, and the customers are too, provided they don't expect more quality than what a learner and unskilled translator could provide. It's somewhat like Google's Captcha, where we are basically working for Google free, by helping them recognize words from old manuscripts (the basic Captcha always had two words: one that computers couldn't recognize and another "control" word). I personally have a problem with working for free for these large corporations, but I suppose that is up to each and everyone to decide for themselves. DuoLinguo is one company among many that has severely driven down the costs of translation. This is great for customers of course, but there is a dying profession behind it, with actual people who have seen their income consistently decline over the last 40 years or so. Translators used to be able to make around 30 cents a word on average, this has gone down to under 10 cents a word. Human translation may be doomed to be replaced one day by machine translation. And there's nothing we can do about that. However we can point out the unethical practices of the companies pioneering this transition to machine translation. For instance, Google translation has improved quite a bit compared to its beginnings. The reason for this is that Google is compiling a huge database of original works and their translation, in full disregard of copyright law. Neither the authors, nor the translators get a dime for their work. DuoLinguo does the same thing, it deprives the person who translated the text from his rights (to be at the very least paid and to have his work recognized as being his own (it's copyright infringement, pure and simple). DuoLinguo is just another example of unregulated capitalism where a Goliath-sized company crushes the "little man", driving down prices, presenting translation as a discipline that doesn't require any particular skills other than knowing two languages, and all of it for profit. They are to translation what R. Diaz is to flamenco. Perhaps OK for the learners, but horrendous business practices. It may be a good way for learning. But it's not free. Nothing is.
Rant over
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: How many languages do you speak?? (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
I wouldn't sell English short on how difficult and sometimes "nonsensical" its spelling is.
like blood and brood, though, tough, through, thought, trough and thorough?
I like to test my Mexican wife with our phrasals, e.g.:
"man up" - to take responsibility "man down" - a combatant injured in battle or too few on the team "pull up" - to bring a car to a halt "pull through" - to overcome difficulty "pull out" - to withdraw from a commitment or exit a side street/change lanes in a car "pull in" - to bring a car to a halt or change lanes "pull over" - to bring a car to a halt versus a pullover (knitwear) "put on" - to pretend or to dress oneself in something "put off" - to postpone "put away" - to save some money or store items "put out" - to extinguish a fire or to be disappointed "put upon" - to be inconvenienced "put up" - to tolerate something
the list is endless, but she is pretty fluent in British English now
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