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I'm sure I've been ripped off in Sevilla!   You are logged in as Guest
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willietea

Posts: 4
Joined: Feb. 19 2016
 

I'm sure I've been ripped off in Sev... 

Hi all,

I'm new to this forum, first post and i'm hoping to seek some helpful advice!

A little back ground. I've been living in Sevilla since September 2015 learning Spanish and Flamenco, been having a great time fulfilling my dreams! In my first week here I purchased a guitar from Antonio Bernal, a Luthier recommended to me by my first school, Taller Flamenco (yes, I've learned a lot regarding who to trust since September!).

Basically, I paid 850e for a guitar which i was told was made from solid timber (spruce top, cedar body and sides), I played the guitar for a while in Antonio's store and was pretty happy with it. Paid for it and started practicing away. Common story, the more i played it the more dissatisfied I became with it. None of my teachers recognise the name, and when they play it all ask, how much did you pay for this? I've visited a few second hand dealers and a few music stores and they've all told me it is not solid timber but some kind of manufactired/layered and glued timber.

Antonio stopped replying to my emails regarding selling/trading it for a better guitar the moment i sent him pictures of what guitar i bought from him, so it's all looking a bit suspect at the moment!

Has anyone been in a similar situation? If so what did you do? What can you recommend i do to get my money back?

Apologies for the lengthy post!

Will
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2016 17:16:40
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3075
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to willietea

http://www.tallerflamenco.com/

Didn't have to get much past the initial page to get the "for tourists" vibe. I wouldn't take advice from places like that, they're probably trying to spread the pieces of the pie among their partners, which is something common.

Not saying that's the case with tallerflamenco.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2016 18:56:57
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to willietea

Antonio Bernal is a pretty well known luthier. Though I think he's more known for building decent quality economy guitars.
Did you pay too much? Perhaps, but I wouldn't let it make you crazy.
Also, he may not be getting back to you for a few reasons, 1. He's Spanish and there's no such thing as a hurry or 2. He's insulted or annoyed and wants to table the problem for a bit.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2016 20:23:11
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to willietea

this has came up before, even as far back as 2007...interesting though
read this thread

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2016 21:10:06
 
willietea

Posts: 4
Joined: Feb. 19 2016
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to Leñador

It is an economic guitar that I purchased. My main issue is that it was sold to me as a solid timber guitar, turns out it's not so i'd like to get my moneys worth! I haven't been aggressive or anything with him,so no need for him to be offended.
So far the conversation has been "this guitar isn't comfortable for me to play, can i change it for something better and pay the difference or sell it to you". The suspiciousness arose once he asked me to send him photos of the guitar/model; once i didn't i never head from him. Before that he was replying promptly.....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2016 21:27:50
 
Piwin

Posts: 3314
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to willietea

Hi Will,

I'd think that the fact that you've had the guitar for 6 months now is going to be a pretty big impediment to returning it. If you really want to get a better guitar, I would personally just cut my losses, sell the old one even if it's at a cheaper price and buy another one, preferably at another guitar shop if you weren't happy with Antonio Bernal (or, alternately, if you have the money to buy another guitar without selling your old one, wait to sell the Bernal in your home country. Depending on the going-rate in your country, 850 may be a fair price for that guitar).

I also own an Antonio Bernal. It was a good starters' guitar, is still holding up strong and is practical just as a take-around guitar.
As Leñador said, he's known for making decent economy guitars. That seems to be the bulk of his trade.

I think you're right in assuming that Taller Flamenco and Antonio Bernal have some sort of preferential trade agreement. However, I wouldn't say that makes them untrustworthy per se, at least not any more than anyone else. Bear in mind that as a foreigner in Andalucia wanting to pay for flamenco classes or a guitar, you're basically a customer on a market, and flamenco professionals want your "business".There's always some resentment from some of them towards the large tourist-geared flamenco centers that (usually just because they have a better website, or have one at all) manage to get the largest chunks of the teaching-to-foreigners market. That doesn't necessarily mean that those places aren't any good, or aren't to be trusted.
I might be a bit too cynical about this, but to me the only way around it was to view it as any other kind of transaction: be aware that they were trying to get my money, and use that to my advantage through comparing them to one another and using the magical power of bartering or haggling . Of course this shouldn't prevent you from establishing friendships or trusting people, but as soon as money is involved, I'd tune up the BS-o-meter at its highest setting...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2016 21:38:04
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to willietea

Post the pictures of the guitars here if you can.

There is unfortunately a lot of scam going on. Spain is a deeply corrupt society. Its not only govermental, rich people and banks being corrupt. The roots are VERY deep and it in all levels of society. I could tell a lot of storys but it would all be off-topic.
The problem is that doing something about it is extremely troublesome, so noone does anything.
I´ve lived here 15 years now and I would personally let go. Enjoy your stay. The other side of Spain can be very nice. Soon it´ll get warmer, there will be a lot people in the streets of Sevilla.
Dont let a cheapo guitar ruin that for you. Maybe you payed 850,-€ for something only worth half or less. That sucks, but it is life and its not the end of anything. So take a good long chat with your guitar. Tell it that its stupid but that you are happy with what you´ve learned so far. Try to make it something between your guitar and you so that you can continue playing it untill you find another pal.

I must admit that it surprises me if Antonio Bernal has scammed you. He should know better.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2016 21:42:15
 
Piwin

Posts: 3314
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to willietea

Could you get one of the people you're talking about (who have said that the guitar isn't what you thought it was) to go with you to Antonio's shop? If it's a true Spanish flamenco artist with some weight in Sevilla that might have some effect...

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2016 21:46:15
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1625
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to willietea

Are you 100% sure the guitar is not all solid timber?
It is a bit strainge he wants a picture of the guitar. A bit like he thinks he sold you a solid guitar.....


That you bought a guitar that is not playable as you thought is your own fault and irrelevant.

So, send him prove it is not solid wood, a picture, and tell him there must be made a mistake one way or the other.
You understand that a mistake is easy to make and are sure both of you can solve this unfortunally problem.
Ask him if he have a suggestion for solving this problem.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2016 22:17:41
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to willietea

Bernal guitars have pretty good sound value for the cost. It sounds fishy.

If the guitar you bought does not match the other Bernal guitars for the same price, but stiff has a Bernal label the you may have been scammed. If so, well if it were me, I'd get proof it is not a Bernal model and then go present the proof to the seller in person and tell him he needs to make good on the deal by trading it for a Bernal of equal value.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2016 4:06:33
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to willietea

Well the easyest thing to start with is to find out what Bernal model it is.
I believe all 20+ flamenco models have a name. So what model name is it, and is it the same guitar as other guitars with the same model name.

Another thing and this is absolutely cultural:
This with showing up with a lot of facts and claiming things is not the way to do things here. That works in the US, Denmark and alike, but not here. They just give you a cold smile and dont care. Especially if you are a foreigner and even more if you are student etc.
What gerundino writes is more the way to go.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2016 8:46:09
 
willietea

Posts: 4
Joined: Feb. 19 2016
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to gerundino63

I guess my proof that it's not solid timber is this: when i look inside the guitar to the back there is a ring like all timbers have, the ring doesn't continue through to the other visible side of the guitar.
Yeah, I'm not entirely blaming Antonio, I bought the guitar with the mindset "I'm buying a guitar here because my (then) school recommended them", so young and naive haha not knowing what to look out for, nor how to speak the language (which i can now!)
I'm not going to be agressive with him, just patient and calm, and negotiate with him. I'm sure he has some high quality products, I just want to get my moneys worth.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2016 9:27:45
 
DavRom

 

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to willietea

don't sweat it willietea. i live in the US and you should have seen my first two guitars (both laminated and with Spanish labels). a teacher i had used to complain about one of them saying "get a new guitar, that one is terrible." I would think f--- you, it's all i can afford. i left that rude dude after eight months

anyway, I had what you may call a 15 year customer relationship with a very well known luthier here in the States who always had a boat load of quality guitars from many luthiers on consignment in his shop. Long story short, in the end he took advantage of my ignorance (i say ripped me off) on a trade-in and when i found out i never did business with him again

s.h.i.t. happens everywhere in the world. not saying Bernal is ripping you, but if he is, just store the memory and move on

play that guitar until you can get a better one. ENJOY THE MUSIC!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2016 10:45:25
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to willietea

That's funny, I get the idea of cultural differences, but leaning into a guy in his shop and getting in their face can change the "I don't care attitude" real fast.

Americans made all the great mafia films for a reason.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2016 12:45:16
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2266
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to willietea

Take your guitar into the store with the idea of trading up, and see what the store owner says about it. And as it has been suggested previously, take an experienced teacher with you to possibly negotiate the deal. Let the teacher play the guitar trade up to see if it is quality of action for price stated.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2016 13:31:50
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13051
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to willietea

quote:

I played the guitar for a while in Antonio's store and was pretty happy with it. Paid for it and started practicing away.


This basically negates all the rest of your complaints. As Tom suggested, just go in as a new customer and offer the trade or sale. Ripping people off at the price range you talk about is not lucrative in anyway I can see. To me, any guitar below the $1500 mark or so, is plywood/scrap wood material. If it sounds good just be thankful. If you get a plywood guitar at $2000 claimed as quality wood, then there is a scam.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2016 16:37:21
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to Ricardo

I have to , agree,, with Ricardo here, as it was ...thing is that your at the bottom end of the market ...I mean a yamaha for 500 and a bit above, , its a bit pot luck going on ...
Heres a sentence or 2 from your first post

'' In my first week here I purchased a guitar.....''
thats a sentence that we all hope will end well ..but it didnt


''recommended to me by my first school''
in the first week ...''
..about as long as we've known each other ...?

I lived in Cordoba for about 2 years before i bought a low end guitar, from Reyes ..
it was a tourist guitar , that they sold as well , he had a few a, about 6 .. we both played them all ....and he chose one for me ....
''why that one ? if there all the same ? from the same place , same wood made the same ?

cos theyre not the same ..this one just seems to have a better 'Bark ' it seems to jump out a bit more ... was the answer ...
so ok ...its a low end guitar ...i knew the story .. I trusted Manuel cos i knew him a bit .....

I still have that guitar...its great ...the best ..no it isnt ..would Ricardo like to play it ?..
probably not, and compare it to his Media Luna ....that woulnt go down too well ..
but for me its much better than a yamaha or low end guitar ,, even though it is one ..


I bought a car once that i had a lot of problems with when i was young ...wouldnt buy a one of them again ....

I would take the advice given here ,,,or try to tweak the guitar by talking to a luthier or 2 ...

but the low end guitars are good to learn on ,,,,the medium range are dodgey , as some are good and some were made on Monday morning ...

then go to a luthier , and contract him to make what youve always wanted ,,
......money needed

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2016 2:09:25
 
willietea

Posts: 4
Joined: Feb. 19 2016
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to El Kiko

Thanks for the input everyone! I've definitely taken this on as a learning experience. So many lessons learned!
I'm now considering holding onto the guitar I have till i'm back home in Aus and buying something there. The idea of buying a flamenco guitar in Spain is so awesome, but i guess as a foreigner I'll never have the upper hand in sealing a good deal.

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Tirititrán, trán, trán, Tirititrán, trán, trán, trán, Tirititrán, trán, trán, trán, Tirititrán, trán, trán, trán
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2016 12:01:56
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to willietea

quote:

The idea of buying a flamenco guitar in Spain is so awesome, but i guess as a foreigner I'll never have the upper hand in sealing a good deal.


It depends on where you buy. I have several good deals and no scamming.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2016 15:41:58
 
Escribano

Posts: 6273
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

It depends on where you buy. I have several good deals and no scamming.


True enough and Anders has some lovely guitars on sale at the moment.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2016 17:19:40
 
johnguitar

 

Posts: 175
Joined: Jan. 10 2006
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to willietea

This "luthier" is related by family I think to another with the same last name. I imagine his operation is similar in that it is basically a factory situation. It is a pity that you got a plywood guitar when they told you it was solid wood but unless you have a legal receipt and want to lodge a complaint with the "Junta de Andalucia" there is nothing you can do about that. The real tragedy is that you no longer like the guitar you bought. The only solution to that is to take your new knowledge and education and get a guitar that you do like. Basically the problem here is that although guitar-makers are generally very honest, there are people whose livelihood depends on buying and selling to make their living. Money is king to those people and you are more likely to find dishonest dealings there. Next time, hopefully you will have enough money to buy from someone who makes the best guitar they know how to every time and does not deal in inferior products.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2016 17:41:53
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to johnguitar

yep . like the luthiers on here that have made guitars for members here , and you can talk to them and their customers and get direct feedback .
some are in Spain some in other countries ...

I like the idea of lodging a complaint con La Junta de Andalucia ....
¿How do you think that will go ?

If the guitar is not that bad , you can move up to a better one in a few years , and that could go to another as a good beginners guitar , or keep it for traveling etc..


Edit ... I see Anders has a 2A blanca up at the moment ...really nice looking guitar . i like the look of it a lot

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2016 22:07:34
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to El Kiko

quote:


I like the idea of lodging a complaint con La Junta de Andalucia ....
¿How do you think that will go ?


HAHAHA Just read about a guy in Jerez who retired with his pension, but did not show up for work the last 6 years of his job. They never noticed he was missing. He worked for the Junta....as a water station manager.

Only in Spain.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2016 23:59:44
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to willietea

Yes, thats true. There´s an enormous amount of people working being very busy and doing very little. Especially in administration.

The problem is that if they got fired the unemployment would go up and here, in Andalucia it is 30% general and around 50% in youth unemployment. And to this you can add that a huge part is short term work.

I want to be a Spanish water station manager. I like water.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2016 8:11:46
 
drhildr

 

Posts: 66
Joined: Feb. 1 2016
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to willietea

Yes I am afraid it is simply a case of moving on and being more careful next time.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 23 2016 7:59:33
 
Haithamflamenco

Posts: 927
Joined: Mar. 6 2007
From: Bahrain

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to willietea

my friend,

you mentioned that you are a beginner and studying in Seville, so why you bought a guitar in this price range?!
its better to buy a student model with lower price,

the thing that your knowledge and taste about flamenco guitars is not yet complete to use it as a reference to buy a guitar.
As your technique and knowledge in flamenco will build up and increase with time,

your knowledge and taste about flamenco guitar will build the same way.

In 800 e price range its better to go for hermanos sanchis 2f where you must selected and try it yourself and seek advice with someone more knowledgeable than you.

I had an Anotnio Bernal while ago, they said antonio bernal is related to valeriano bernal – not sure, decent guitars, but in his catalog it’s not clear which guitar is solid and which is laminated.
I was susbshis about his when I found another brand called FERNANDEZ GALLAGAR making the same guitars with same strange headstock!!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 23 2016 12:24:03
 
DavRom

 

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Only in Spain.


Only in Spain?!

really?

I was born in NYC. Ever hear of Tammany Hall? Corruption American style dating back to the mid 19th century

I grew up in Chicago. Everyone knows the corruption associated with Al Capone

Ever hear of the Daley Machine in Chicago? Corruption American style from the 1950s through the 70s

I personally know about stories of employees of the Chicago Transit Authority showing up for work to clock in and soon after taking off for a day of golf. They retired with a nice pension too!

I used to work in a high school in Chicago. There was a physical education teacher there who every morning would park his car in a restricted zone with emergency lights flashing, go to the main office to sign in then return to his car and take off to his restaurant for the rest of the day. His students would show up to class and just sit idly in the gymnasium because their teacher was MIA

I guarantee you that teacher retired with a nice pension too!

The incredible collapse of the American economy and real estate prices (that had risen steadily for decades until 2008), all due to corruption. And this just filters out to the rest of the world, even Spain

Only in Spain?!

really?


what of the remnants of the Soviet Union? No corruption in Russia, is there?

we could go on and on and on and on ad nauseum
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 23 2016 20:01:18
 
Piwin

Posts: 3314
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to DavRom

Really.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 23 2016 20:18:44
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to willietea

quote:

Only in Spain.

Pretty sure he just meant it like a saying.
Like when I see a crazy looking cholo holding hands with a vacaido in front of 711 i say "Only in LA." Really, you could probably see this a lot of different places but it sounds about right to see it in LA.
Or if you see a big fat polish dude choking on a brat you might say "Only in Chicago" but really, my big fat polish friend choked on a brat at Octoberfest in long beach.

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 23 2016 23:58:47
 
DavRom

 

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to Leñador

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

Or if you see a big fat polish dude choking on a brat you might say "Only in Chicago" but really, my big fat polish friend choked on a brat at Octoberfest in long beach.


ok. i can relate to that


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2016 6:00:16
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