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RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in Sevilla!   You are logged in as Guest
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BarkellWH

Posts: 3247
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

The guilt of centuries of colonialism has made it impossible to issue any kind of judgment on how another society functions. Even suggesting that throwing acid on a girl's face because she went to school is probably not the best way of optimizing the well-being of people is met with contempt by many of the PC thought-police. We defend the gays in our own country, but if they're being killed by fanatics somewhere in the Middle-East, then we can't judge. It's their religion you see...it's their culture, etc. etc.


The best example of an exception to your quote above can be found in the writings of V.S. Naipaul. Naipaul is an ethnic East Indian, originally from Trinidad, who went to Britain in 1954, studied at Oxford, and never looked back. He is originally a product of the "Third World" who fearlessly points out all the contradictions, foibles, and inconsistencies of former colonies of Western powers as they attempted to define their "post-Colonial" status, and in doing so ended up aping their former Colonial masters to a degree never reached when they were colonies. As examples of Naipaul's works, I suggest "India: A Wounded Civilization" (1977), "A Congo Diary" (1980), "The Return of Eva Perón and the Killings in Trinidad" (1980), and "Among the Believers: An Islamic Journey" (1981).

Naipaul's critiques of these "post-Colonial" societies are absolutely devastating. The anthropological community and other so-called "Post-Colonial" writers despise Naipaul because he explodes their comfortable assumptions about the "West" being responsible for the lack of political, economic, and social development in these countries. No, says Naipaul, these countries are largely responsible for their own lack of development. One of the greatest tributes paid to Naipaul is that the arch-post-Colonial writer and apologist for Near Eastern inability to come to terms with modernity, Edward Said, criticized him roundly, and in doing so revealed his own biases and lack of perspective. I heartily recommend V.S. Naipaul to all who are tired of the politically-correct, post-Colonial, post-Modernist attempt to criticize the West and absolve the Developing World of responsibility for its inability to embrace modernity, using the catch-all term "Cultural Relativism," not to mention the fiction of the West's "responsibility."

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2016 20:02:48
 
DavRom

 

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

The guilt of centuries of colonialism has made it impossible to issue any kind of judgment on how another society functions.


why do you feel guilt for what your predecessors have done?

What is true for one society must by definition be true for all societies

otherwise it's moral/ethical relativism and anarchists rule
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2016 22:21:25
 
Piwin

Posts: 3298
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

As examples of Naipaul's works, I suggest "India: A Wounded Civilization" (1977), "A Congo Diary" (1980), "The Return of Eva Perón and the Killings in Trinidad" (1980), and "Among the Believers: An Islamic Journey" (1981).


Thank you for the recommendations. It's been probably close to a decade since I last read anything by Naipaul. Now is a good time for me to read it with a pair of fresh eyes.

quote:

I heartily recommend V.S. Naipaul to all who are tired of the politically-correct, post-Colonial, post-Modernist attempt to criticize the West and absolve the Developing World of responsibility for its inability to embrace modernity, using the catch-all term "Cultural Relativism," not to mention the fiction of the West's "responsibility."


There are some aspects on which I do believe certain Western countries are "responsible". My problem is that what you tend to get are these blanket accusations that make an ill-defined "West" responsible for everything that's wrong in the world. One fairly recent example of that is the direction connection that people have established between the 2003 US intervention in Irak and the rise of ISIS. It seems to be close to a consensus now that the US invasion led directly to the current situation. While there are many reasons to criticize that war, I don't really buy into this narrative that it was all our fault. I remember reading an article back in 2003 by the late Christopher Hitchens. He was in favor of intervening, mainly because of his ties with the Kurdish représentatives within the Socialist International. However, his opinion was that the Iraki state would disintegrate after the death of Saddam Hussein, with his two psychopathic sons failing to stabilize the country. In fact, he thought that the power void would be filled by fanatics attempting to create a new caliphate. It was in fact the first time I heard of the term caliphate applied to modern times. He seemed to believe that the only way to prevent this was to help establish a stable democracy in the region. Obviously, we failed to do that. But I find it interesting that his writings on the subject have been ignored, as they tend to show that the current situation may have been inevitable. Though I guess it would deprive us of yet another opportunity to flog ourselves and the temptation towards self-flagellation seems very strong nowadays. It's turning into an endless Semana Santa procession...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2016 22:41:36
 
Piwin

Posts: 3298
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to DavRom

quote:

why do you feel guilt for what your predecessors have done?


The short answer is that I don't. But I do acknowledge specific ills that were caused by leading expansionist societies on others (as I acknowledge the benefits they may have brought with them).

quote:

What is true for one society must by definition be true for all societies otherwise it's moral/ethical relativism and anarchists rule


I agree but only to a certain extent. While I don't subscribe to moral relativism per se, I do believe that we cannot judge anyone's "morality" without considering also the circumstances. For instance, the family in rural Mali that kills their newborn child because he is severely handicaped seems less to blame than the family that would do the same thing in current day Canada (or whichever developed country you wish to choose). At the very least, it's more understandable as they are driven by sheer necessity (the family I questioned about this said that they simply didn't have the means to care for him without putting their other children at risk so they reluctantly killed him...). Similarly, many of the things we now consider immoral may have served a very good purpose in their time. They're simply outdated because our circumstances have changed. (for instance, I personal see the issue of eating meat as a moral one in my country today. But I also understand that this is made possible by my own circumstances. In other situations, living without meat is simply impossible. I wouldn't dream of saying that the fact that hunter-gatherers kill for food is immoral...) There are very few morals that can stand the test of time and apply to all periods of time. There are some, but much less than we sometimes think. The moral stances I feel entitled to criticize are those that harm a society while not being driven by any form of necessity. For instance, subjugating women doesn't answer to any kind of necessity and is immoral (subjugation of women is the factor that corelates the highest to poverty. If a society wants to get out of poverty, free the women. So even in relative terms it's immoral.) I suppose it's a form of moral relativism but it's very far from what is being proned my many in the humanities. Rather it's a form of moral "flexibility" you get when you analyze morality in evolutionary terms.

As for the anarchists ruling, I'm honestly quite curious to see what that would be like. It's easy to identify the failings of communism or capitalist democracy because we've seen them in action. But I don't think there's ever been a wide-scale attempt at organising an anarchist society (except arguably a very short stint in a war-torn Catalonya), only small pockets of hippie communities giving it a go. My intuition is that it wouldn't work, but I'd still be very curious to see what it would look like!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2016 23:16:31
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to BarkellWH

Yeah well I l've been reading about the Mongol invasions of the lands passed the Asian steps and into Europe. Aggressive Islamists should instead look over towards Mongolia if they have far reaching historical beefs with the West. The Mongols killed more Muslims than the crusades, and pitted the various sects against each other to accomplish it.

I don't have a problem making moral judgments on cultures that are doing things that are universally morally wrong. We don't live in a world separated by geography and distances any longer.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2016 23:36:53

El Frijolito

Posts: 131
Joined: Feb. 27 2016
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

only small pockets of hippie communities giving it a go. My intuition is that it wouldn't work, but I'd still be very curious to see what it would look like!


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2016 0:06:07
 
Piwin

Posts: 3298
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to El Frijolito

Haha.

But that's my point. What would Catalonya look like if the anarchists hadn't been snuffed out by the communists (and if they had beaten Franco!!)?
I have a hard imagining what anarchism would look like in a group of people who aren't hardcore hippies (since they seem to have appropriated and disfigured anarchism for their own purposes).

Also, the guy in the middle with the dreadlocks (OK, they ALL have dreadlocks!!) needs to learn about sun screen. That's gonna hurt tomorrow.

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2016 0:21:17
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to BarkellWH

I think you have a good point on Hitchens' observations and his motives for that thinking. He was critically taken down by left intellectuals in the US and Europe for that view, as it was too close to the Bush Doctrine architected by Cheney and Wolfowitz. Hitch broke rank with left intellectuals who were making a living demonizing colonialism. He was also wrong in some ways, as are were the colonial blamers. I spend a lot f time in the art world and this kind of thinking is a priori for survival. If you dissent from the multi cultural post colonial religion good luck getting a job.

The Naipaul book Bill mentioned is well worth reading as it is told by Naipaul as he travels through Iran interviewing powerful clerics who have just gained total control of the country. An American or European would not have been able to conduct these interviews. The interviews give a good look at what was on the minds of the power grabbers in Iran at the time a sets up a great narrative for understanding Iran today.

Hitch partly recanted his early 2000's views before he died because he realized something important. The reasons are enormously complex, but the states in the region will not follow a Western model towards stability and unification. We saw the Arab Spring and for a few minutes thought, well perhaps the Bush Dotrine was wrong, but not off target. It was way off target. For the reasons you cited, power vacuum will be filled by military unwilling to give up power to civilian governance and regional sectarian warlords, lets call them what they really are, who will take power in rural areas. All this is not the result of colonialism. This is how it has always been except during the times when great Mid East Empires tamed down regional warlords and governed by forceful central rule.

The Iran model is really the next best hope. After the US and Iran engaged in talks over nuclear issues there was a big sigh of relief from the main populations of both countries. Hey we are talking, that is good. The hardliners on both sides will balk at this notion, but that is what happened. (Conservative US congress needs to have a look at this and not listen to the foolish isolationists in their districts.-

I believe after watching this for a long time that Iran is the lynch pin to stabilizing the region. And that it is will a lot of time and patience. I say this because the elections in Iran just showed that the people want more choices and that there is loosening on the choke back of more centrist people being elected to office in Iran. Stability hopefully will come out of Iran being a better model for other Mid East countries and with normalization between the US and Iran in travel, and trade exchange of culture a new trust can develop slowly. It might take decades. As I see it Iran has a better chance of moving to a world position were East and West may not agree or be governed the same way, but through mutual reliance on trade deals and cultural trust building, there will be enough slack given in Iran theocratic wings to allow centrists to make normal conversation with the West.

What people are leaving out of the picture is that Iran and other countries want to trade with the US a Europe. They don't want purchase Chinese aircraft for commercial airlines because they are inferior products, they want Airbus and Boeing. If we forestall the mistrust long enough to make a few trade contracts and then deliver on them, we could have a pretty good thing going with Iran. Which in turn looks like a good model for the rest of the region to follow. The hard line religions states with backward cultures regarding Western contat will have to reevaluate what that means and moving forward may have to change.

One of the problems we have talked about before here is the fact that Islam will have to undergo a reevaluation at some point in the future. Sectarian disharmony causes too many problems in the world. I've been preoccupied with how that will come about. I keep coming back to the concept that long term planning and careful incremental steps with gaining trust with Iran will yield the most value.

We have demonstrated over an over, and the USSR as well that you can't win a sustained armed battle in the region. Why even try? Why don't we use our heads for a change and think long range in terms of cultural exchange with Iran? I'm not interested in hashing out revisionist colonial issues, or making that a clever career. I've come to see that line of thinking and mode of teaching generally as an academic industry that creates a niche of jobs for abuse of critical thinking.

Framing the problem as total result of colonial meddling is a professional blame game. The usefulness of this game is limited in the real world, although it is useful historically and vitally important not to gloss over it in recording history. Hitch I think arrived at the same conclusions and he as ostricitzed for that brand of thinking, at least from the left. The right embraced him a new convert to conservatism. I think he was really trying to see past religious fervor and its effects on places like Iran. And since much of conservatism is rooted in a kind of religious observation of morality, Hitch went very far left to call out the blindness or religious fervor.

His thinking or critical process is to me very good, because once he realized entrenched wars were not going to "fix" the Mid East he turned to the real issue and root cause. Why does religious fervor instill mistrust and fear into its core believers, and why does this enable political conservatives to ensnare populations in religious fear? In many ways it is an extension of the work Naipaul put into 'Among the Believers' where he delivers it straight from the clerics mouth to your reading ear. Naipaul does not fall back on the argument that colonialism caused the problems in Iran or the region, he looks more carefully at the dynamic at play in real time. He does not choose to use the blame game that can be taken from a reading of Edward Said's Orientalism, a great work and an important piece on how we read history. I think it is more a lesson in critical thinking than practical discourse to be acted upon. Those colonial parsing out arguments are not going to create the real time relationships and very much needed trade deals. I find it a bit frustrating when intellectuals fixate on them, because it is in a way, when abused, just showing off intellectually. It serves no purpose other that to shame a culture today that may not deserve to be shamed. Or if shamed may not collectively understand why. Or finally may react to shaming in a way that hampers a forward move of trust and trade with Iran.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2016 0:52:24
 
DavRom

 

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to BarkellWH

the problem with anarchism is that it is fundamentally destructive

a free-for-all always ends with utter destruction. listening to anarchist logic is like listening to an 8 yr old explain a lie

re: judging someone's "morality"
those who seem less to blame are never the less still to blame
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2016 0:56:33
 
Piwin

Posts: 3298
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to DavRom

quote:

the problem with anarchism is that it is fundamentally destructive a free-for-all always ends with utter destruction. listening to anarchist logic is like listening to an 8 yr old explain a lie


I've never heard any serious advocate of anarchism defend anything remotely close to a free-for-all. I'd suggest you've been listening to the hippie version too much. There are many schools of thought within anarchism, with differing views on many aspects of governance. It is perhaps overly optimistic in that it is based on volontary contributions by all in a given society. That may be its fatal flaw. But then again, it's never really been implemented at any scale of consequence, so at this point it's just speculation. I personnally have a hard time coming to such a clear cut conclusion on anything so speculative. But that's just me.

quote:

re: judging someone's "morality"
those who seem less to blame are never the less still to blame


But they're not. Fortunately our legal system knows this and takes it into account.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2016 1:17:10
 
Piwin

Posts: 3298
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to estebanana

Interesting points.

I've always found it odd that we maintained better relations with Saudi Arabia than Iran. It's a mystery to me...
I'd agree that Iran may be the most promising way forward, but with one rather large caveat: Iran is majoritarily Shia in an almost entirely Sunni region.
Given the level of animosity between the two factions, I don't think Sunni-led countries would follow Iran's example any time soon. Unless the much hoped-for reevaluation of Islam that you talked about happens. In which case, a brighter future may be possible.
Even for cultural exchanges to take place, the place of religion must be reevaluated. This may be possible in Iran, but it will take longer in the Arab countries. Fairly recent estimates state that the entire Arab-speaking world translates into Arabic as many books per year as Spain does into Spanish. Attempts at cultural exchange have been made, but they're on the whole one-directional, much of what we have to propose in terms of culture being denied entry into their countries sheerly for religious reasons. So it seems the lynchpin will have to be moderates everywhere. With a moderate-led government, access to new information, new ideas will be facilitated, which over time may help improve much of what is not working in that region. I'm unfortunately not optimistic that anything will change unless this reevaluation of Islam happens. But I do hope you're right, that over time, even if it means waiting for a new generation, this type of change may gradually take place.
Fingers crossed!

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2016 1:30:27
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to BarkellWH

Anarchy has as many ideas as those between Bakunin and the Sex Pistols.

In the end kind of a juvenile idea, I have to agree. But a Bakunin elucidates the concept better than a naughty 8 year ld.

One thing we have learned about Iran that is profound and hopefully sinks into our hard American heads- Don't even try to manipulate Iran, just treat them fairly.

Of course congressmen from the Fly Over States seldom learn these lesson in time.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2016 1:33:51
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Even for cultural exchanges to take place, the place of religion must be reevaluated. This may be possible in Iran, but it will take longer in the Arab countries. Fairly recent estimates state that the entire Arab-speaking world translates into Arabic as many books per year as Spain does into Spanish. Attempts at cultural exchange have been made, but they're on the whole one-directional, much of what we have to propose in terms of culture being denied entry into their countries sheerly for religious reasons.


I don't see much hope for Saudi Arabia anytime soon, but they may be destined to remain with a few other states the Islamic throwbacks of the region. Not much difference between them and the US ultra conservatives that would love a Christian Theocracy. There are those who envision that and I find them and that idea deplorable.

In places like Saudi Arabia I think outside cultural influences are not the model to look a for power change. There is a secular segment of the population that may eventually grow and get tired of the religiosity in Saudi Arabia, it's not a total wasteland of ultra conservatives. The thing is it is an enforced conformist society with little wiggle room for differing views on how to live. There are young people there who are educated elsewhere and read the international papers, I don't think knowledge of outside culture is the problem. The problem is the hypocritical imposition of ultra conservative Islamic law on the main population, who are well aware of the world outside Saudi Arabia. Something has to happen from the inside and they may be too complacent to bother.

Saudi Arabia has an over bearing patriarchal structure enforced by islamic laws, what would need to happen is the people will have to demand a separation between governance and religion. One f the ways that could come about is through a reform of Islamic law that gives women more religious emancipation. An example would be more equality in the work place and a revision of Islam that allows women equal protection, yet still retains enough "religions fervor" for the hard liners to compromise to.

They are already making waves about this, Saudi women are. There was an incident where a Saudi woman was working in an office or equally trained professional male counterparts and she was forced to give her male associates small samples of her breast milk for them to drink. In doing so it made them under their brand of Islamic Law a family member and thus she was able to be in company of male office counterparts. A reform that would make the work place more leveling and moderate would be to declare such actions illegal under employment law. That may be a long tie off in Saudi Arabia, but that is an example of what is on the table.

In a bigger picture of a reforming of Islamic laws I can see a kind of Islamic feminism that will continue to develop to give women more cultural and legal protections. Iranians in Iran are maybe not altogether on this, but there is vast acceptance of secular social coding in Iran. Even if it is covert.

Well it is a huge subject with a lot of angles and issues, but I think there is going to continue be much more push back from women in the Islamic world who do not like the current religious laws which enforce oppression of women's choices in their own lives. And I think this is going comprise a major part of how Islam will change for the better. A lot of what drives extreme behavior in Islam is the struggle for a patriarchy to hold power as tightly as possible. It is a also a great irritant to ultra conservatives that Western women have a good deal more emancipation and they see this as a threat. Little by little over several generations women may be the ones who bring the religion to a more moderate place.

I think the movements in the Islamic world for women's education are really a kind of reformation already happening, but progress is difficult to see. One of the past keys to the patriarchal strangle hold on Islam is lack of education for women. This created a dependency mentality and culture on men's power. Women seem to be getting on past that and demanding education and other kinds of equality in an Islamic context. This is all for the good.

As for the West, more education would be good too.

The education for women reformation is under way, but the problem is how to make it universal and protect women from the religious throwbacks in rural areas.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2016 4:19:43
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to BarkellWH

Why do you guys think there´s an off-topic section in this forum.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2016 7:47:57
 
Escribano

Posts: 6254
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

Why do you guys think there´s an off-topic section in this forum

Good point, Anders. I have made it so.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2016 9:36:14
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

We defend the gays in our own country, but if they're being killed by fanatics somewhere in the Middle-East, then we can't judge. It's their religion you see...it's their culture, etc. etc.
Go figure...


The irony being that the increased hunt of homosexuals through that religion is supposed to have been triggered by a British decree in India.

- While the worldy whereabout being that homosexuality occures the most under limited choice of prudish traditions.

Paradoxon is the paradigm like usually.
-

Regarding colonialism, there is neither sense with inherited guilt of today´s western democrats, nor with downplaying colonial cruelty and its effects and heir today. Even if the historcial policies were to only mean intensification of cruelty already in place before.
-

Iranian opposition´s consensus on the election from past weekend appeared to be that everyone should stay away from the ballot boxes.

Basically of sense, only that it would had meant a victory for the radical.

So, the people decided to the contrary, participated in great numbers and voted for the moderate candidates.

And the autocrat apparently decided to let the ballot come through / not manipulate the result this time.
I´ve read a comment that suggested that the autocrat may have sensed that things were going towards revolt, thus figured to better grant some relief.

And while there seems a lot of resignation and intimidation among the people, conditions have become so unbearable (with the excessive sucking off through the establishment / blatant nepotism, price gauging, deprivation and poverty of the little people who can´t even afford base food anymore, let alone medical treatment etc. -While the dumb & shameless drive around the ruins in Porsches and buy off filet estate in London) that an uprising seemed like inevitable, even yet with a people dreading execution force who has proven to having no scruples with mowing down masses.


Among the ugly specific characteristics of the past 1.5 millenia there are ungratefulness and treachery.

So, foreseeably occured to the person who produced the leader almost 2 decades ago. Supposedly because of the dullness of his protege the guy behind him must have expected the protege to stay good.

But as he could had predicted with only basic psychological and cultural undestanding, the colorless turned into the wishing opposite. Putting under his foot everyone including his promotor and fancying himself as future´s religious history figure and grounder of some shia imperium.

Things didn´t work out as intended however, and were sealed with cancer and an assumed negative prognosis of the ambitious hero.

So, best left to was to try and preserve the national religious dictature, which was most probably provided through taking back on hardlining.
-

Still, at some polling stations people were brave enough to chant: "We want free elections!"

And at another polling station they dared to chant: "Go back in line!" when a radical official showed up for voting, trying to bypass the line in good old Asian tradition of loads of ritual politeness covering actual recklessness and disrespect.

The atmosphere is a weird mixture of vastly spineless being with sporadically incredibly encouraged individuals standing out.

They are the scarce yet just the more shining remains of bravery which was and is being systematically erased through centuries of tryanny, and to whichs sort of extermination colonialism did contribute as well. Like it or not.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2016 12:13:13
 
Piwin

Posts: 3298
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

Why do you guys think there´s an off-topic section in this forum.


Oh but it's not off-topic. We're crafting a meticulous strategy to that Willietea can get his money back. We start by freeing the women in Iran and Saudi Arabia, corrupt regimes collapse, freedom and democracy spread all throughout the Mediterranean region, corruption takes a hit, cultural paradigms start changing including in the South of Spain, and through peer pressure Antonio Bernal is riddled by guilt for having swindled someone, and gives Willietea his money back.
It may take a few generations though. Willietea, how long are you planning on staying in Sevilla?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2016 13:52:30
 
edguerin

Posts: 1558
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

We're crafting a meticulous strategy to that Willietea can get his money back. We start by freeing the women in Iran and Saudi Arabia, corrupt regimes collapse, freedom and democracy spread all throughout the Mediterranean region, corruption takes a hit, cultural paradigms start changing including in the South of Spain, and through peer pressure Antonio Bernal is riddled by guilt for having swindled someone, and gives Willietea his money back.


Unfortunately, during this process Flamenco is washed up in "world-music", and disappears. And Willietea won't need a flamenco guitar anymore ....

_____________________________

Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2016 7:59:38
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to BarkellWH

But fretless basses and cajons may still be there.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2016 9:02:09
 
Piwin

Posts: 3298
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: I'm sure I've been ripped off in... (in reply to edguerin

And thus began what future generations came to know as the golden age of the theremin...
I'm less worried about flamenco guitars not being around than about Willietea no longer be around. For this plan to work, he may have to look into cryogenics... Which also implies that we would have to kidnap and freeze Antonio Bernal... If Willietea can give me an itinerary, I can get the chloroform and an unregistered white van

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2016 12:05:00
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to willietea

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2016 17:18:50
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