Unusual bracing...

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Unusual bracing...

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DaveyS

Posts: 27
Joined: Oct. 6 2015

Unusual bracing...

Hi there, I was hoping one of the learned gents that post on this Foro might be able to shed some light on the origins of the bracing style of one of my guitars.

This is a Burguet Flamenco model made in 2014 and after scouring the Internet I haven't been able to find any information about other Luthiers who have built with this style.

The guitar is light, very well finished and while not as focused or refined as my other guitars she produces a satisfyingly loud, bright sound. I still enjoy pulling it out every now and then.

This is my first ever post to a forum and I'm struggling to embed the image so here is a link to the photo...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/02ybqyp6e9ucfp5/File%2020-01-2016%2C%2000%2044%2026.jpeg?dl=0

Thanks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2016 14:02:16

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1675
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to DaveyS)

I can't answer your question. Just wanted to say Wow, that's unusual and different. But it follows the generally practiced idea of having more mass in the center of the soundboard than around the edges.

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www.edluthier.com
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I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2016 14:24:57

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to DaveyS)

It brings to mind Paulino Bernabe. Although I haven't seen that exact pattern he used so many variations it could be a copy.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2016 14:45:07

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to jshelton5040)

The first Bernabe I played was at Ivor Marants's shop in London, some time in the late 1960s. It had only three braces, one down the middle, the other two symmetrically placed on either side. I thought it was loud, but a bit coarse compared to the Ramirez 1a's Mairants had at the time. That same week I played both a Contreras and a Bernabe at Len Williams's Guitar Center. I liked his Ramirez 1a's better.

But as I mentioned elsewhere, in 1991 I preferred the Contreras I bought from Manuel, Sr. to the other guitars I tried in Madrid that week.

My impression was that Bernabe and Contreras had improved significantly, and the Ramirez were not quite up to those of the '60s and 70s. But of course, only a direct comparison in the same room would have been valid, and someone else might have had a different impression altogether, depending upon how they played and what they wanted to hear.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2016 16:50:01

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to DaveyS)

never seen bracing like that... That bridgepatch is it inclined? or is it the shadow..?
Looks quite fragile, could stringtension be a problem on the long term? like dishing or other deformation?
I´m interested to hear the luthiers opinions on this...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2016 17:57:27

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to koenie17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: koenie17

Looks quite fragile, could stringtension be a problem on the long term? like dishing or other deformation?
I´m interested to hear the luthiers opinions on this...

Dishing of the top is usually the result of too light braces and/or too thin top combined with saddle height. If there is equilibrium between top thickness and brace height this pattern is no more likely to dish than any other.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2016 18:20:24

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to DaveyS)

Hmm... looks reasonable enough. Basically a 5 fan pattern, minus 2 fans

I wonder how tall the braces are and how thick the top is.
The area behind the bridge that's stiffened with that "chicken foot" pattern is probably an attempt to constrain the bass a bit, which otherwise might be a little out of control with this pattern (if I had to guess).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2016 22:35:27

DaveyS

Posts: 27
Joined: Oct. 6 2015

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Wow! Thanks to you all for your thoughts.
I've read so many forum posts from you all that it feels a bit starstruck:)
This guitar isn't any more fragile than my other guitars Koenie17, especially compared to my '86 Conde blanca which is so lightly built that it's a bit disconcerting.
I thinks that the bridge patch just looks a bit off kilter because of angle of the light but it bay be part of the grand plan (or the bloke that glued it in could have had walleye-vision...).
I have it strung with HT Savarez Alliance.

I took a look at Paulino Bernabe's website to try and get a look at some half finished instruments but he doesn't seem to want to show off his bracing John. His workshop looks pretty sweet though.

Andy, your comments are very astute. The tonal balance of this instrument is a touch cloudy in the low-mids. One doesn't notice it so much if you listen to it on it's own but when played next to a first class instrument it is definitely apparent.

I didn't know that about the mass loading of the soundboard Ethan but it definitely stands to reason. Would guitars braced with a 'reverse fan' an exception to this rule?

Your comment has me thinking about how this guitar might improve with age Richard. I have heard about the 3 strut bracing before and it constantly amazes me how many combinations of bracing can be successful.

The woods used in this guitar appear to be first class but I have no experience of how a guitar can change over a number of years.
Is it likely that the low end will tighten?

I really appreciate your comments.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2016 0:22:02

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to DaveyS)

It's coming out of some bracings I've seen before. There is a fishbone pattern bracing from Kohno and some others by Ruck that have all those elements. Your maker put those elements together his own way.

It is a bit sparce, not reason why it should not work. The cross di-pole mode on flamenco guitars is a real key. That is the side to side mode in the wings of the lower bout. He left that really open, unbraced, if that area has enough cross grain stiffness naturally in the top you could trust those open areas without braces. Then your concern turns to stiffness along the grain and how much you want carry with braces. He looks like he picks up length wise stiffness with those two long diagonal braces and then wants the area behind the bridge to be consolidated into that area like a big triangle of stiffness in the center of the top.

It's not a bad idea theoretically. And really more or less a reductive version of 'normal' kite style bracing. It's like if you have five fan braces remove two of them and add that fishbone thingy.

I've made a similar top once and did not like it, becasue it was exactly what Andy said the low midrange was unclear and not punchy enough. I changed the top for the customer and the guitar was braced normally, meaning seven fans and two cutoff braces and the result was a much better guitar.

Don't worry that the bridge path is wonky. Midrange stuff might gain clarity as time goes by, you never know until you wait and play it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2016 1:07:39

DaveyS

Posts: 27
Joined: Oct. 6 2015

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to estebanana)

Thanks Stephen, those are very interesting comments.
I can't say that I've experienced any of the work of Konho or Robert Ruck but I'll check it out. I understand that Ruck guitars are highly prized but don't know about Konho at all.

I've taken a short clip showing the interior of this guitar which I'll post once I can upload it and I'll record a little snippet with a comparison against something really good to give the posse an idea of how this bracing sounds.

I'm glad to see that there are other people who find this interesting and wonderful to see the collective understanding of guitar construction in action.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2016 7:35:48

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to DaveyS)

Guitar where the soundboard to the sides of the bridge is left without any support tend to dish to the sides. The space between the the bridge and the side may dish when the bridge gets pulled up by the string tension. Have you checked that?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2016 8:30:31

DaveyS

Posts: 27
Joined: Oct. 6 2015

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Hi Anders, there is no sign of dishing or undesirable torque through the top.
It looks to be a nice piece of wood but it is a maybe a bit thicker.
Certainly thicker than the guitars I've had where the soundboard was so thin that you can actually see the braces under pressure through it. I've had a Camps Primera A that was like that and my Gravina Conde is like that too. The Camps was a bit boxy but the Conde really pops and has sweet treble.
Do you ever go that thin yourself?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2016 12:00:06

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to DaveyS)

If you can see the braces in the soundboard, its not because the soundboard is to thin but because to much pressure was used when bracing. A typical rush error.
I build as thin as the soundboard tells me it should be and that varies.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2016 19:19:03

DaveyS

Posts: 27
Joined: Oct. 6 2015

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I didn't know that Anders, thanks for the insight.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2016 23:38:24

DaveyS

Posts: 27
Joined: Oct. 6 2015

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to DaveyS)

Here is a link to the interior of the guitar so you can get a better idea of the thing.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/69bsk7k1g4prjvs/IMG_1021.MOV?dl=0

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2016 23:43:23

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to DaveyS)

Is there finish on the back braces? Is that normal?? Looks like satin lacquer....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2016 2:48:25

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to DaveyS)

This guitar is built with extreme care and the parts look to my eyes carefully assembled.
I agree the bracing is unusual and somehow quite different from that used by Bernabe in '70
Usually behind the bridge you'd keep the bracing lighter than in front of the bridge, but in this case (as with the reverse bracing, which you quote correctly).
As Stephen said, on the web there are some pictures of a bracing pattern (with 9 struts) supposedly used by Robert Ruck which is similar on the area behind the bridge.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2016 7:16:05

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to DaveyS)

Thanks for the video. Its a lovely soundtrack. Did you compose it.

As has been said on this forum many times by various builders: Its not so much about the bracing than about what the builder does with it.

Not long ago, there was a thread here about a book/CD with different bracings and different builders.
The comment that that I remember wa Ricardo saying that guitars from 1 builder but with different bracing systems tended to sound more or less the same. That I have noticed in my own building and that of other makers.
That is very interesting IMHO

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2016 8:14:28

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

As has been said on this forum many times by various builders: Its not so much about the bracing than about what the builder does with it

I have to agree with that.
I used to own one of these Burguet blancas myself, with the same bracing. It was a good guitar, quite heavily built. The weight was about 1450g, but unfortunately I never measured the top thickness.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2016 9:04:55

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to DaveyS)

Thats a very nice looking guitar! Love the little details like the different couloured tentalones and the clean work on the inside. IMO the laquer on the braces looks great.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2016 10:00:09

DaveyS

Posts: 27
Joined: Oct. 6 2015

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to krichards)

Lenador, I always thought those back braces were very attractive myself and it does look like they have been finished before they were installed. I couldn't say for certain and I agree with what you say about the attention to detail Echi. I have a bunch of guitars and this one really holds its own on the construction front.

Kevin, this guitar is light. My lightest is an '86 Conde Blanca (1276gm) followed by this Burguet (1364gm) and then a '98 Conde Blanca (1432gm). This model was released by Burguet in 2014 and is supposedly different to the model that preceded it (1FB?).

I'm glad you like the soundtrack Anders! I've been listening to lots of Harry Partch and this is my sub-tropical homage.
I agree with what you say about individual builders achieving a 'uniformity' of sound regardless of their apparent method.

Here is a link to the guitars I have that could be 'x-rayed' (i.e. Spruce top)...
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/v5usemp0p8hcagb/AABmuGEGwpv-af8iOYl9D8U-a?dl=0

There are 3 condes and the Burguet and it is interesting to note that they all share a familial timbre (if not feel)
Even given the fact that one of the Blancas was built at Gravina 7 12 years before the others and has a completely different internal structure.

It's also worth noting that the Gravina instrument looks like a 3 year old put it together (which it has is in common with my '73 Cedar top from the same workshop) BUT! It has some serious duende which careful construction apparently cannot replicate.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2016 10:42:35

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to DaveyS)

quote:

As has been said on this forum many times by various builders: Its not so much about the bracing than about what the builder does with it.

Of course the bracing is just one part of the whole
Nonetheless when I change my bracing pattern I clearly perceive a difference (or I believe to do it).
What I mean is that while a guitar of mine has its personality , the bracing pattern has a clear influence.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2016 12:52:23

DaveyS

Posts: 27
Joined: Oct. 6 2015

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to Echi)

That would have to be the case Echi but I suppose that although each new guitar you build will sound a bit different whichever way you brace it.
Do you think it is possible that if you were to assemble all of the guitars that you have ever built and compare their sound that they may all have something that could be recognised as 'your' sound. Sort of like dna. My brother, my sister and I can all be told apart but we also have something in our looks which allows people who know my father to instantly tell that we are his children...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2016 13:22:24

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

..... guitars from 1 builder but with different bracing systems tended to sound more or less the same

Yes .. sound and “feel”. I think that I posted about a couple of Manuel Bellido’s with similar sound and feel – one with 5 fan braces and the other with 9. It is interesting to compare the approaches of Bellido and Manuel Reyes with respect to bracing. Bellido has experimented with just about everything and if the bracing diagram in the Granada School of Guitar Makers is not a joke, it represents yet another new experiment. On the other hand Reyes guitars from the mid-70’s onwards show a series of small changes, presumably aimed at refining the Reyes dream of how his guitars should sound and feel.

So what is the message in all this for anyone choosing a luthier?

Useless questions to ask
What pattern of bracing do you use?
Can you make me a replica of the Conde, Reyes or Barbero design?

Instead you need to find out what the luthiers dream is and consider if coincides with yours – not easy for customer or luthier! By the time I had worked out how to do this I was too old for it to be much use! Any ideas?

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2016 16:27:43

mmenk

Posts: 23
Joined: Dec. 26 2015

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to RobJe)

I think that this is a good topic for discussion.
We know that the most important part of the guitar is the player.
Then the player wants a good guitar that does the job of making sound.
Curious minds want to know how these things work, so we look at the sound board and the bracing. Almost any pattern will work, and sometimes it looks like the builder threw the I Ching sticks. No bracing, or full coverage. It does make a difference, like seasoning in food. What do you want it to sound like?
Curious builders would like to know.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2016 22:25:16

DaveyS

Posts: 27
Joined: Oct. 6 2015

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to RobJe)

At the end of the day I think that if you buy from a recognised luthier who produces guitars with a sound and feel you like then you just have to trust in them and let them go for it.

I may be terribly indecisive but it's taken me a while to understand what I like and now I find that the desire for multiple instruments is as much about the playing geometry and feel as the sound.
I find this to be especially true of multiple guitars by one maker. The one I reach for may not be the 'best' sounding but it is the best to play (in my opinion). Another guitarist may prefer something else.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2016 22:43:59

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to DaveyS)

quote:

I'm glad you like the soundtrack Anders! I've been listening to lots of Harry Partch and this is my sub-tropical homage.
I agree with what you say about individual builders achieving a 'uniformity' of sound regardless of their apparent method.

Good for you Harry Partch is a great open secret. A great American composer.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2016 2:18:25

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to DaveyS)

The bracing system is, of course, a part of the guitars soul.
I also use different bracing patterns for flamenco, hybrids and classicals.

But the bracing pattern tends to be highly overrated. Specially by non builders.
IMHO, the most important part of guitar building is to get the darn thing balanced out so that the instrument works as a whole and vibrates freely.

Another example of the relatively low importance of a bracing system is that you can have 2 good builders build a guitar with the same plan (bracing system, body-size etc) but there´s a big chance the 2 guitars will play and feel differently. On the other hand, you make 1 builder make 2 flamenco guitars with the same body-size and with a 5 and a 7 piece bracing system and you may not be able to hear or feel much difference.

As said above, we the builders tend to have our ideal and follow that and the little sticks are just something we use in order to get closer to that ideal.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2016 7:38:43

mmenk

Posts: 23
Joined: Dec. 26 2015

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to jshelton5040)

you have been inventive and tried so many variations.
It is hard to believe that you spent the time and energy to do your double back and sides. I purchased one of your fine instruments from Matt Umanov at the Great American guitar show a few years ago. Killer guitar, you rock.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2016 20:23:51

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Unusual bracing... (in reply to mmenk)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mmenk

you have been inventive and tried so many variations.
It is hard to believe that you spent the time and energy to do your double back and sides. I purchased one of your fine instruments from Matt Umanov at the Great American guitar show a few years ago. Killer guitar, you rock.

If I can ever get photos to load with windows 10 I'll post of couple of pictures of the current double classics we're building.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2016 23:04:46