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Modes & Scales   You are logged in as Guest
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Fisch

 

Posts: 32
Joined: May 27 2015
 

Modes & Scales 

I wondered if anyone has a good reference for the different modes used in many of the major palos.

I mean we all know Phrygian but obviously we play many other modes without much reference to knowing the complete scale, (or at least I do.)

I'm looking for something that shows some of the scale patterns used for many of the palos for something I'm working on. I guess you guys would know much better than I where to look, or you probably have it all figured out by now anyways

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2015 16:11:08
 
Leñador

Posts: 5229
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Modes & Scales (in reply to Fisch

David Serva has a book called like.....100 picados or something like that. I've got it around here somewhere.....I'll be back.

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2015 2:30:03
 
chester

Posts: 769
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Modes & Scales (in reply to Fisch

Not flamenco specific but you can look up the major scale in 'three notes per string' fingerings. There are seven positions (modes) - you gotta just sit an memorize them. Run up and down, make up patterns (123, 234, 345, etc), try to make it fun and pay attention to your body and fingers -- am I tensing up? are any fingers having trouble getting somewhere? Practice practice practice...

Sorry kinda went on a rant there.

I'm not aware of flamenco specific fingerings/positions, just good-ol three notes per string with a raised 7th. If there are any I would love to hear about/find out.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2015 4:55:17
 
Fisch

 

Posts: 32
Joined: May 27 2015
 

RE: Modes & Scales (in reply to Fisch

Thanks guys but not really what I'm after....

For example Alegria standard (E & Bb) is in the key of E major, so for improvisational or composing purposes think in this key. Of course this is the key that most of us are familiar with (along with Phyrigian)

Buleria standard (A, Bb) is C major (without any variations, which of course change things a lot) so again you can move in this mode.

But the question is does anyone have a good place for a reference. Someone suggested me this book "Flamenco's Guitar Guide by David Leiva"

Any others
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2015 8:29:39
 
koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Modes & Scales (in reply to Fisch

quote:

Buleria standard (A, Bb) is C major


The major scale to use in Bulerias por medio(A - Bb) is F major, not C major!!

Dminor, A Phygrian and F major are the same(por medio A - Bb)

Aminor, E Phygrian and C major (por arriba E - F)

If you dont understand this, I suggest you do some research on basic music theory and modes.

A quick one on modes

https://youtu.be/JKbPIGnqt80

Now Jason Mcguire has some really good ones on harmony in flamenco

https://youtu.be/Idsv9M9JUzc (por medio)

https://youtu.be/TdFNqgRYl7E(Alegrías E mayor)

You also mixed things up for Alegrias...

quote:

For example Alegria standard (E & Bb)


Should be E and B7!!!!

This is all very good and can be very helpfull, but I think you should be carefull not to get lost in theory when learning flamenco, especially if you´re learning in Spain like yourself! Most of the guitarplayers over here don´t know theory, so most of the time you´ll get funny looks when you try and discuss this with them.


The book you talk about is just another chord book...
The book I use for excersices and stuff is "Estudio Técnico de la guitarra Flamenca" By Manuel Granados.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2015 10:05:36
 
Fisch

 

Posts: 32
Joined: May 27 2015
 

RE: Modes & Scales (in reply to Fisch

Oh my bad,

I'm so use to not using the names of the scales at all sorry....

That's why I'm asking for a reference. Everyone I have learnt with can explain it playing wise but never theory wise ;)

And you're right it should be B7 not Bb, I never even use the names, lol.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2015 10:13:11
 
dapperdan

Posts: 20
Joined: Mar. 27 2012
 

RE: Modes & Scales (in reply to Fisch

I think I know what you mean you want.

I found something a while ago on the internet called "different ways to look at flamenco palos" by Thomas Whiteley. Just google that I'm sure you will find it. If not drop me a mail and I will dig it out.

It lists most if not all the palos, and the keys they are usualy played in, along whith time signatures. Hope that helps.

Dan.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2015 11:07:46
 
Fisch

 

Posts: 32
Joined: May 27 2015
 

RE: Modes & Scales (in reply to Fisch

Wow thanks a lot Dan, that was just what I was looking for :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2015 11:15:04
 
tele

Posts: 1436
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Modes & Scales (in reply to Fisch

In Flamenco the base is usually Phrygian dominant but often there are notes showing up that are not included in the base scale. A good knowledge of scales on the whole fretboard helps to understand some aspects of "flamenco theory". It's not much work to memorize them.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2015 14:14:43
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12192
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Modes & Scales (in reply to Fisch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fisch

Oh my bad,

I'm so use to not using the names of the scales at all sorry....

That's why I'm asking for a reference. Everyone I have learnt with can explain it playing wise but never theory wise ;)

And you're right it should be B7 not Bb, I never even use the names, lol.


I would first advise to ignore it (scale mode route) as per flamenco discipline...all you need to know is neatly contained in the music of the maestros which you SHOULD be studying (as opposed to jumping into "your own thing" composing and improvising). Once you have studied a lot of the maestros falsetas and rhythms, it becomes a matter of personal taste when putting together your own personal falsetas and rhythms. In the world of flamenco, it is not really about specific scales and such except in special situations. Sabicas used to run chromatic scales as he pleased....because actually flamenco is tonal music that makes use of the entire chromatic spectrum. If you simply copy the masters you will see better what YOU can do on your own.

Now if you WANT to learn music theory lingo, and better understand the guitar as an instrument, generally speaking, look no further than understanding the circle of 5ths. YOu can find that info free on line. It relates keys and scales and chords all together ....and if you get the idea there, all the modes too. In terms of application, not just finger exercise.

If you want something more cerebral and specific, here is a tutorial I made breaking down in detail a tune by Paco, McLaughlin and Dimeola, that is neither FLAMENCO nor JAZZ, but is a deliberate sophisticated fusion that makes uses of many elements. Specific scales are discussed and you can clearly see how they might relate to flamenco music interms of guitar falsetas or improvisation.

Part 1 is just the harmonic break down of the tune, part two is all the scales and stuff.

Part 1
http://youtu.be/bZDsYH1EiNE
Part 2
http://youtu.be/1Z1MUfOi8Io

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2015 18:16:42
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Modes & Scales (in reply to Fisch

And if you WANT to buy the guitar that Ricardo used in those videos so you can absorb the theory knowledge faster, I can help with that.

LOL

I am all for Ricardo's approach. When I was in college studying music I tried to go the cerebral route and the only thing that happened was me getting frustrated. My frustration blocked me from progress until I quit trying to brain through it. It was much more valuable to adapt the work of the masters to my technical ability at the time. I came to understand the theory, but it doesn't enhance my ability to execute the style.

Ironically, Ricardo said the same thing to me lo those many years ago. Imagine the time I could have saved!

Your ears, more than anything, and cante will inform your note choices better than mapping out the scales. If you can listen to cante and emulate it (dynamics included) with your guitar you will be vastly better off than practicing runs and scales ad nauseum. Context is everything.

Listen to cante. Emulate cante. pick a passage, listen to it, imagine where the notes might be on the guitar, play the notes. remember where you were wrong and try again. This is ear training and will make you a better player in every way.

Knowing the theory serves to enable communication with other musicians. I will admit that many flamenco guitarists are genre bound in this way; unable to communicate in the language of music. A working knowledge of the theory can help to communicate with non flamencos. However, you will find that the likelyhood of communicating anything of value to a non flamenco player within the musical pretense of playing flamenco together is.... about as useful as pissing up a waterfall.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2015 19:52:59
 
Fisch

 

Posts: 32
Joined: May 27 2015
 

RE: Modes & Scales (in reply to Fisch

Thanks for the responses guys.

Theory wise I'm really at square one... I thought Phrygian meant the C major scale until old mate said otherwise and I started to dive deeper.

You guys mentioned the scales not really being relevant but earlier in the year I was studying with Pedro Sierra and he's pretty switched with scales for different palos. He gave us a very quick run down but what I've noticed here is that most of the students study several different scales the thing is we just don't know how it applies to music.

I definitely agree that this talk about roots, dominates ect is more about having a language to talk to other musicians.

But keys are definitely relevant. After checking out "Different ways to look at flamenco palos" by Thomas Whiteley I was pretty impressed with his method (which was just what I was personally looking for)

And yeh that whole circle of fifths has definitely eluded me. I'm sure it's helpful in many ways... I just need something to make the connection.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2015 21:20:01
 
koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Modes & Scales (in reply to Ricardo

Wow that´s a great lesson Richard!! You really know your stuff..
I only know some basic theory, seeing your video makes me wanna study theory again. I alway get stuck after a while

Your a great teacher!!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 1 2016 8:45:45
 
tele

Posts: 1436
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Modes & Scales (in reply to Fisch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fisch

Theory wise I'm really at square one... I thought Phrygian meant the C major scale until old mate said otherwise and I started to dive deeper.




If you use the same notes that are in C major but start it(or another way to say it, use as a base note) from the E then you get E phrygian, so what you thought initially was almost correct.
this site will help you understand scales better www.all-guitar-chords.com/

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 1 2016 22:38:06
 
benros

 

Posts: 144
Joined: Aug. 27 2016
 

RE: Modes & Scales (in reply to dapperdan

hey dan, i cant find the whiteley text on the net anymore. can you email it to me? that would be great!

my adress: publicus@gmx.de

thanks, ben
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 16 2017 6:50:20
 
Red_Label

 

Posts: 34
Joined: Apr. 23 2012
 

RE: Modes & Scales (in reply to Fisch

This does not speak specifially to flamenco, nor does it contain Phrygian #3, Harmonic Minor, whole tone, diminished, or chromatic scales. But it does give a visual reference for the seven diatonic modes based off of the major scale notes. It's something I've posted on many guitar sites over the years.

http://www.rig-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2017 3:53:06
 
jamh2000

 

Posts: 41
Joined: Jan. 13 2012
 

RE: Modes & Scales (in reply to Fisch

The way I see it, if you want to study theory it's much more useful to have a grasp of harmony and the ability to read bass and treble clef
than to know the modes. For god's sake, learn the chords which belong to the major and minor scales so you can tell when you're looking at a chord IV, V etc and what alterations/substitutions have been made. This involves learning 14 chords and is so so helpful. Even in jazz, where scales and modes are used for improvisation, there is no point in learning modes until you know how to play all the chords/apreggios in different ways all over the neck.
Trying to improvise using scales and modes without knowing your chords is pretty silly. Modes sound impressive but harmony is much more fundamental.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2017 9:54:36
 
athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: Modes & Scales (in reply to Fisch

quote:



I would first advise to ignore it (scale mode route) as per flamenco discipline...all you need to know is neatly contained in the music of the maestros which you SHOULD be studying (as opposed to jumping into "your own thing" composing and improvising). Once you have studied a lot of the maestros falsetas and rhythms, it becomes a matter of personal taste when putting together your own personal falsetas and rhythms. In the world of flamenco, it is not really about specific scales and such except in special situations. Sabicas used to run chromatic scales as he pleased....because actually flamenco is tonal music that makes use of the entire chromatic spectrum. If you simply copy the masters you will see better what YOU can do on your own.


Have you any specific examples for good rumba material to learn that's not to hard and helps me improvising?
That'd be great!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2017 10:35:40
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Modes & Scales (in reply to athrane77

quote:

ORIGINAL: athrane77
Have you any specific examples for good rumba material to learn that's not to hard and helps me improvising?
That'd be great!


Assuming you mean improvising solo lines over rumba chord changes, then Gipsy Kings are a great start. Get their lives videos, especially the early one, and check out Tonino's solos on things like Pharaon, Duende, Inspiration, Moorea, Alegria etc
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2017 11:01:08
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12192
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Modes & Scales (in reply to athrane77

quote:

ORIGINAL: athrane77

quote:



I would first advise to ignore it (scale mode route) as per flamenco discipline...all you need to know is neatly contained in the music of the maestros which you SHOULD be studying (as opposed to jumping into "your own thing" composing and improvising). Once you have studied a lot of the maestros falsetas and rhythms, it becomes a matter of personal taste when putting together your own personal falsetas and rhythms. In the world of flamenco, it is not really about specific scales and such except in special situations. Sabicas used to run chromatic scales as he pleased....because actually flamenco is tonal music that makes use of the entire chromatic spectrum. If you simply copy the masters you will see better what YOU can do on your own.


Have you any specific examples for good rumba material to learn that's not to hard and helps me improvising?
That'd be great!


A simple place to start is two chord vamps that give you tons of time to explore single modes. For example Caballo Negro by Manolo Sanlucar has two chords, A and G major, which spells out A mixolydian (3#). The ending of Entre Dos Aguas, D7-Em, is an E Aeolian vamp. So that's two modes. You can do the same thing with the other 5 modes, but here are some recommendations:

E Ionian: Emajor7-Amajor7 (4#)
C lydian:C maj7-Bm7 or Cmaj7-D7(1#)
A dorian:Am7-Bm7....a lot like intro to Entre dos Aguas but DON"T introduce the B7 that changes the scale.(1#)
E phrygian: Em7-Fmaj7#11/E....it's important to have E in the bass for both chords so it doesn't pull the ear too strong toward F lydian (no #'s or b's)


E phrygian Dominant:Emajor(b9)-Fmaj7#11 or Dm7....this one has a stronger sound with the G# used so no real need to keep E bass. (G# only)
E locrian: Em7b5-Bb/E.....This one is weird but normally just keeping the E bass constant will do the trick, otherwise any chord you move to might pull the ear to THAT other mode. Bb is safest IMO if there will be anymore chords used at all. (1b)

These are just some examples to try, but you need to understand how to do these kind of vamps in all keys.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2017 17:56:48
 
Red_Label

 

Posts: 34
Joined: Apr. 23 2012
 

RE: Modes & Scales (in reply to athrane77

Modes and harmonic/chordal theory are all related and pieces of the same puzzle. I was a classical guitar performance and theory major, but have gigged nearly all genres/styles over the past 32 years. Knowing the modes was a HUGE factor in me being comfortable on stage regardless of the material we were playing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2017 23:57:13
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