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RE: Alien Megastructure discovered?
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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 RE: Alien Megastructure discovered? (in reply to El Kiko)
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The discussion calls to mind a couple of experiences.
The northern end of Namu atoll in the Marshall Islands is only 35 miles south of the southern end of Kwajalein atoll, where I lived for 18 1/2 years. But it is more like 60 miles between the navigable passes in the two atolls that allow a boat of any significant draft to enter their lagoons.
Returning from a sailing trip to Namu aboard a friend's 46-foot (14-meter) sloop, we sailed all night in very light winds. While I had the helm, I noticed a brilliant light on the horizon, bearing a little north of east. Large ships are rare in that part of the ocean, but this looked to me like the masthead light of sizable vessel. As the light slowly rose above the horizon, consistent with an approaching ship, its bearing remained constant, indicating we were on a collision course. After observing for at least 15 minutes, I mentioned the light to my friend Jim, the owner of the boat. He said, "Yes, I've been watching it."
The light rose higher and higher, maintaining a constant bearing. I said, "It must be a pretty big ship." Jim agreed.
After nearly an hour of increasing anxiety, a thought occurred to me. "Jim," I said.
"Yes?"
"That's Saturn."
Jim consulted the nautical almanac, confirmed my diagnosis, and we had a good laugh at our illusion-inspired anxiety, at the prospect of colliding with a distant planet.
Another experience:
Being on the other side of the International Date Line from the USA, we worked Tuesday through Saturday to synchronize with our contacts in the USA. One Suniday morning four of us set out on our regular diving trip. We noticed an unusual number of people out on boats, mostly rented from the marina, many of them near the same spot in the lagoon. Many people were diving near this spot.
We contacted some of the boats by VHF radio, to ask if anything special was going on. "Haven't you heard?" they asked. "A satellite reentered last night and crashed into the lagoon. People are looking for the remains."
"How do you know about this?"
"The space trackers saw it last night, and talked about it in the dining hall at breakfast."
The ALTAIR radar on our island is the leading sensor in the Space Surveillance Network, and operates 24 hours/day, seven days a week, manned by three shifts of operators. Though I was the radar boss, I would have been awakened and notified only if there was a serious problem with the radar, not just for an unusual observation by a sensor that continued to function normally. I usually ate breakfast in my apartment, so I missed the excitement at breakfast in the dining hall.
We went to one of our our usual dive destinations, and returned late that afternoon. At dinner, no one reported finding any satellite wreckage. The next day, my curiosity aroused, I went to the ALTAIR radar, and started looking through the recordings of the observations. Sure enough, there was a track that passed nearly straight overhead, but only a few tens of meters above the radar.
But something was inconsistent. To track something passing so close at high velocity, the antenna would have to have moved much faster than it did, faster in fact than it could have, as I had suspected the day before. ALTAIR's 150-foot dish antenna weighs more than a million pounds, and can move no more than 10 degrees per second.
In fact the antenna's motion was consistent with tracking a satellite in near earth orbit.
Looking more carefully at the recorded data, the apparent close range of the object was consistent with a well-known radar phenomenon called "range ambiguity." The operating software of the radar was supposed to guard against this error, but a bug had been activated (apparently for the first time) by an extremely rare set of conditions.
The operators' experience would have been alarming. The display the operators looked at showed range quite graphically, but the orientation of the antenna was shown only in small digits, elsewhere on the console. A large object appeared to be approaching straight at the radar. As the satellite passed overhead, the antenna would have accelerated to several degrees per second. The "growler", the audible indicator of the antenna's rate, would have risen to a high pitch. It would have been easy to conclude that a large object was headed straight at the radar, only to end in a shattering, fiery, death-dealing crash. The operators would have breathed a hearty sigh of relief when the object passed overhead and appeared to crash into the lagoon.
But there was no crashing satellite, just a software bug that made its appearance only after years of successful operation.
I am not claiming these two experiences are evidence against the existence of alien space craft.
I will say that these two occurrences are evidence that experienced expert observers can at times be subjected to powerful illusions.
RNJ
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Date Aug. 2 2016 21:17:50
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Alien Megastructure discovered? (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
But regarding UFO sightings and even strange encounters, we are also talking about mass sightings as well as concurring individual reports. There is too much of similarity and number of occurances for it all to be solely illusion.
Not necessarily. You asked whether the crew of an entire ship could experience "aligned hallucination". To which the answer is yes. There are meteorological phenomena such as St Elmo's Light that are frequently seen by groups of people. Same goes for most kinds of mirages, from the simple heat haze to Fata Morgana. there are other cases where it may in fact be an aircraft, for instance the infamous B-2 bomber, that is apparently quite a strange sight. Not to mention the mass illusions experienced by millions of TV-viewers every time they turn on Penn and Teller... In any event, the fact that several people saw the same thing does not lead to the conclusion that what they saw was alien in origin.
As for concurring individual reports, again it isn't enough to lead to any particular conclusion. If you read through what DMT-users regularly report, many of them see these so-called "reptilians". This doesn't suggest that these things actually exist, only that a particular action on the molecular-level of the brain can lead to the same visual effect in people. In fact, there are many reports of DMT-users that are quite similar to alien abduction stories. Similarly, people who have near-death experiences almost invariably report things that are incredibly-close to a trip on MDMA. And the reasons for this are rather well known, and will be even further as our knowledge of the brain increases.
The main issue with this is how it leads to a belief in some kind of large-scale conspiracy. Well conspiracies do exist (9/11 was an attack of terrorists conspiring to attack the US, so a conspiracy...) but such large-scale conspiracies are near impossible. Remember that people are suggesting this is some kind of military or government conspiracy, i.e. the same people who regularly get hacked by Julian Douchebag Assange and his lot. It is very unlikely they'd be able to conceal interaction with aliens. And that's where Ocham's razor kicks in and we should go for the simplest explanation.. Shermer, in his book on WWII-revisionism, points out that one of the recurrent features of revisionists was the fact that they would focus on small anomalies that didn't fit the accepted version of history. They would then elaborate on these ad nauseam and build them up as evidence, completely forgetting about the tons and tons of evidence that actually go against their revisionist theories. To me, it seems to be an issue of giving disproportionate attention to small pieces of evidence, at the detriment of the bigger picture.
@Lenador
ROFL. And remember that Martian guy who was on MTV singing about being a legal alien in New York?! 
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Aug. 3 2016 9:54:08
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Alien Megastructure discovered? (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
Well conspiracies do exist (9/11 was an attack of terrorists conspiring to attack the US, so a conspiracy...)
But a Conspiracy Theorist would call you naive for parroting the U.S. Government line as stated above. A Conspiracy Theorist "knows" that the 9/11 attacks against the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were engineered by the U.S. Government itself. You could hear them spouting off right after 9/11, and occasionally they still pop up, ranging from music icon Willie Nelson to that blowhard TV "personality" Rosie O'Donnell.
To listen to them you would think they all have Master's Degrees in structural engineering the way they prattle on about the "impossibility" of the steel beam structures to soften and buckle from burning aviation fuel. Obviously an inside job. U.S. Government agents wired the buildings with explosives without any of the office workers noticing them. That is the Conspiracy Theorists' application of Ocham's Razor. And if you attempt to dissuade them with actual evidence, they will double down because the mere fact that you are challenging their version demonstrates that you yourself obviously are part of the conspiracy and cover-up.
We have discussed a lot of this before: Chemtrails, 9/11, the "faked" moon landing, Roswell, Area 51 where the U.S. Air Force keeps captured aliens preserved in vats, etc. Conspiracy Theorists will always be with us. Perhaps someday researchers will discover a genetic defect as the cause, or perhaps something else, maybe an imbalance between the left and right hemispheres of the brain. But one thing for sure, they will always be with us.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 3 2016 11:10:29
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Alien Megastructure discovered? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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A hallucination is exclusively produced in the brain and cannot occure to several individuals. That is different from a fata morgana or St. Elmo´s light which are physical phenomenons, thus visible to several observers at once. The fata morgana being a reflection of objects in air layers, the St. Elmo´s light caused by electric field.
Noone actually takes opportunity to clear up the points I mentioned. (Does it not alert you in any way, when you find yourself keep omitting presented points and evading to generalizations? -What about the "fata morgana" of official cleansing or helpless presidents?) Much of what is happening is some general ridiculing and offering of truisms whether related or not (even 9/11, which remains a plain impossibility the way it´s supposed to have taken place, whether you wish the government to come out integer or not) merely to demonstrate that aliens have no entry permit in the attitude asylum.
Looking like the religious procedure of goals set with following touch up, rather than open mindness on principle. There I like my stand better, which for decades used to be that aliens within our empirics ought to be impossible / very unlikely, but allowing reconsideration when there occuring bits that appear like actual food for thought, as of very lately.
Maybe an overview on the matter made me reconsider simply because of my background on common knowledge not being enough? Sure, that could be indeed, even with me as info junkie.
So far I find it surprising that new clues could make me pondering, and thus my interest in hearing what (other) level-headed minds experience when coming across the mufon files.
Whether the bits being worth considering: That is what would be interesting hearing from you about. It is why I pointed to some of them. I am eager to see your opinion, instead of being fed with trivial generalization.
If not wanting to proceed like e.g. minds who dismiss refined tuners without having tried them, you may want to see first what mufon presents. Anyone here tried doing so, so far?
You could be doing better than above. And if it was just for yours truly who on behalf of this matter accepted going through the humiliation of "approval" injustice from my friend, the one-eyed forum Cyclops.
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Date Aug. 3 2016 12:38:19
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Alien Megastructure discovered? (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
Since I mentioned him above, here is Shermer's take on it. It doesn't explain everything, but it does suggest that we may be, through our biological evolution, hardwired to see patterns and intentions even when there are none.
To make out patterns and developments was an essential for exposed hominids to survive, and later actually the base for intellectual, philosophical and scientifical arise.
On the other end of the cognitive scale there was ignorance. According to anthropology a psychological defense mechanism against overpowering natural conditions, and a mental support to carry on / not despair.
Despite of the latters practical obsolescence, genetics overtaken by human development, still host both tendencies, and it is up to the individuals to chose one of the two as their preferred kind of approach.
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Date Aug. 3 2016 14:31:12
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Alien Megastructure discovered? (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
A hallucination is exclusively produced in the brain and cannot occure to several individuals. That is different from a fata morgana or St. Elmo´s light which are physical phenomenons, thus visible to several observers at once. The fata morgana being a reflection of objects in air layers, the St. Elmo´s light caused by electric field.
I'm pretty sure you understood I wasn't using "hallucination" in the medical sense. I mentioned mistaking a B-2 bomber for an alien aircraft in my list of examples...Nor is it necessary to argue the possibility of collective hallucinations, since, as you rightly pointed out, other physical phenomena can do the trick just as well. How are you making me argue for or against the existence of collective hallucinations in the medical sense? This was never the point and you know it.
quote:
Noone actually takes opportunity to clear up the points I mentioned. (Does it not alert you in any way, when you find yourself keep omitting presented points and evading to generalizations?
That is an unfair characterization of what I said. And in fact, yes I did try to clear up at least some of the points you mentioned...The two first paragraphs were clearly counterpoints to yours and if you misunderstood the third paragraph, let me elaborate:
The principle of Ocham's razor has to be dealt with, and at the very least, if you want to establish the validity of this alien theory, you have to disprove the other, more likely, theories. To do so, not only do you have to provide evidence, but you also have to deal with all the evidence that goes against your own theory. And this is what you don't find with conspiracy theorists. They'll focus on the little evidence they have and ask others to deal with it but never ever deal themselves with the tons of evidence that goes against their own theory. This is precisely what you are doing here and as such it is not a generalization or evasion at all. If you don't see the connection I can't do much more. The burden of proof is not on me (and this is not a level-playing field where there is equal amounts of evidence on both sides) but since you seem to think that I'm spewing out generalizations, let me just add that none of the examples you gave were anything else than generalizations. On what ship was there this collective sighting? When? In what conditions? Etc. etc. If you want to be specific, be specific.
None of this suggests that I'm not willing to look into it. Nor that I am somehow ridiculing or banning people from presenting their own theories. Only their theories will have to hold up against the evidence. Also, you may want to give people more than a day to look-up MUFON before attacking them. Though of what I've found so far in what I looked up, you're probably not going to like my conclusion (though it says nothing about the content they may provide, the fact that their former director, James Carrion, left and explained his departure by saying "That is the sad state of affairs of UFology today, humans deceiving humans. If there is a real phenomenon, I have yet to see any evidence of it that would stand under scientific scrutiny" is already a pretty bad sign. But we'll see...)
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Aug. 3 2016 14:57:04
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Alien Megastructure discovered? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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Simon,
I wasn´t aware of "making out" meaning visual perception in English. What I was hoping to say was realisation in general.
Agreed on deceiving senses. Very impressive, among countless demos, the example with someone been recorded saying "Bah, bah, bah" while the video presented showing lips that say "Fah, fah, fah". It inevitably making audience hear the latter even though the actual sound is another.
Piwin,
You are right, fellows should have more than a day for to check out the Mufon docu I have been watching. But they could just as well wait a little with truisms and obligatory ridiculing, innit.
People wittness shapes that have little to do with B2 bombers. Mostly they report on round and triangular forms. Like the ones thousands of people watched near Aachen silently hoovering over their heads at about 30 meters hight during daylight.
I am not intending to present you data. Instead I was pointing out items that impressed me. (To motivate you guys to try watching this stuff and come back with your own opinion.)
Mufon stores 80 000 files. That is no little at all, whether we want to call it evidence or not. There will likely be lots of contributions from witnesses who misinterpreted experiences. But there are a lot of conform reports of multiple reputated journalists about communal witnesses and about following official action. There is footage, documents, NP articles and quotes from official personal, from US presidents down to soldiers, police officers and scientists.
And there remains the question: If there is nothing in existence, why the fuzz from authorities? Are people / whole parts of villages conformingly spinning about having been threatened?
Why did presidents not publish concerning state files as promissed? Why instead utter that they were not able to order, nor even able to access themselves?
And if confirmed mass sightings about unusually shaped and under common technical means impossibly moving objects (which I have seen myself with reference points) are homegrown military secret technology, what´s the use of strictly hiding it throughout over 6 decades? Would deterrent policy like through nuclear missiles no longer be of strategic value?
Shouldn´t it contribute to world peace (provided it being wanted) if everyone being aware that you could potentially pop up anywhere you want in no time and hit bad guys, in place of having to overcome conventional obstacles?
Regarding a former Mufon director you mention: If so sober how come occupying the position to start with and out of all as a director? It is a an oddly expressed statement regarding his past and strangely vehement for someone who simply understands to have been erring / wasting his time. An ordered disassociation could rather sound like that.
Anyway, it be great if you guys watched the Mufon thing and then tell what you think.
PS:
The topic of directors reminds me of another example.
Have you heard the Smithonian´s director stating about Gustav Weißkopf in stoical defence of the brothers Wright? So much about ensured authencity and directors.
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Date Aug. 3 2016 16:29:52
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Alien Megastructure discovered? (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
quote:
A provenly inacceptable outlook
We clearly disagree on the definition of "proven". This seems to me a matter of opinion, and a rather bleak opinion of humanity it is too. You'll note that there are similar discussions going on about general AI. It is easy to imagine that, if we manage to invent a functional general AI, it won't be too long before "work" as we know it becomes obsolete (with all the questions about distribution of wealth, etc. that it raises). However, no one seems to be trying to hide that one from anybody. In fact, they're funding research in the field and rather proud of their results.
As far hiding it to keep other powers from "exploring superior technology", doesn't this go against what you said in your previous post about not hiding new military technology because you want other powers to know you have it (deterrent)?
There goes my plan for today; but I just love these topics and there are not too many folks to passionately debate them with (little in the west and lesser here in in Middle East where I have to first wake interest with the surrounding and mostly try supplying basics beforehand).
I was reflecting on establishment, not humanity.
In view of humanity opinions are actually reverse from what you just assumed. Common sense has been taught that humans were to be selfish and short-sighted by nature, while I am hard trying to point out that such is not "human nature" but the current culture, which in fact contradicts human nature from ground up.
I have a way better and hopeful impression of humans than common sense has. Or better to say of the natural human / human potential.
AI ..., great topic! But first to what you said about patent development of it.
We are having technical manufacturing assistance since a while now. It should had brought us less labour and labour time and a rising living standard, shouldn´t it? Where is the corresponding and linear result apart from increased profits and unemployment?
Similarly you have to expect from AI. Well-meaning individuals among developing staff aside, one must count with aims pro privileged instead of noble ambitions. Certainly at first. With partial exceptions like in Japan maybe: AI more or less as personnel for the wealthy and as mercenary.
It will very likely be AI autonomously that will dedicate itself to reason.
Same with nano tech which in the end should be kicking capitalist economy-levers into the trash can. It will certainly be seeing resistance before it may reach to there.
Back to AI and the threat common sense expects from it. Recently, I have first time seen a scientifical stand which (by same arguments) supported my assumption that self-aware AI should not be prone to the misled drive-animated destructive attitude new age menkind displays. It´s got to end up reasonable and constructive, up from a certain intellectual level, which again it should be achieving rapidly.
So, whatever main intentions there be at developing it, chances are high for it to become a generally helpful phenomenon to the planet and its life. (Provided things not being too late ecologically, and that´s where the essential crux lies.)
Another confirmation I saw in a recent documentary where an anthropologist pointed out that menkind could had not made it through under the characteristics traditionally attributed to it. Underlined by the very arguments that me gives.
Besides, finally also saw equivalent lately regarding my claim that we shall not relate to Chimpanzees to explain ourselves / justify status quo, but instead have a look at Bonobos for good reason.
The farther into the future the more conclusive it gets.
I mean congruently, scientifically and technologically.
These are the fields that appeal to reason and adequacy, in contrast to headless culture and ignorance of a caveman -who actually has not been that way. And if we be lucky these fields might take our culture with them. If they - rather sooner than later - won´t, all this contemporary blossom of academic ratio will have been a shooting star over desert.
Not a soundless one, nor one that could change its direction or hover and halt; but one that ends.
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Date Aug. 3 2016 19:37:22
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Alien Megastructure discovered? (in reply to Ricardo)
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Piwi,
Good to hear that some politicians are supposed to be welcoming the disappearance of labor. But it would surprise me if the power who actually shapes our societies, the grand capital would. After all the ordinary background for insatiability is the compensatory aim of being exclusive.
Some time ago for instance there was a docu about Canadian billionaires.
One of them saying something to the extent of: "And in ten years the remaining percentage of wealth will be ours too". Shrugs shoulders and smiles.
Yet, with the diasappearance of labor the upper 400 will still be possessing what has been gathered beforehand; maintaining their towering, power and privilege, autocracy and the shortage among people.
That be different from reason (through aliens).
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
A hallucination is exclusively produced in the brain and cannot occure to several individuals.
It is not what religion is based on? Not unlike your "sightings"?
Religious appear to have mutual imagination of metaphysics, but not concretely and simultaneously shared imaginations.
My sightings were none of predefinition and anticipation, nor illusionary. Actually, as mentioned above; so little prepared for accepting UFO events I forgot about them until the topic came up years later (on the foro I think it was).
And if you like to impute impared senses (which I suppose you could be doing next) let me tell you that a bottle of booze or even just wine will cost several hundred bucks over here, which in consequence had me have hardly as many glasses distributed over all these years as one might be having in the course of one evening in the civilized world.
(And to top it, much of it was of the fake crap produced here or in neighbouring black markets. Smells like booz, tastes dull, gives you a subtle flash that lasts for maybe 20 min. and headaches next day. Tempting like dish washing solution. ... Except for an event when a dealer probably didn´t know what the booty was, cops must have sold him from confiscated load. So on our secluded table during a wedding there landed a bottle of actual Jack Daniels fetched for a mere 25 bucks. What a delight that half of a beaker was!)
According to trafficers behind the border, the main customers are out of all the ones with the towels on their heads. Money being no object to them, neither scruples over hypocricy.
But I´m not going to try interviewing them about unknown flying objects.
Anyway, during those months on that balkony with a view over the city, drinks we used to have were tee and coffee.
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Date Aug. 4 2016 12:06:38
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Alien Megastructure discovered? (in reply to Ricardo)
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Hamia,
Does it surprise you that I am alienated by a culture of ethical disaster and abysmal literacy? (The last case of someone coming by to tell me of his medical journey was five days ago. Another story of incredible incompetence, irresponsible routine, outrageous looting and disdain for anything near the Hippocratic oath. Besides, the country being in the international top with prescription of antibiotics may tell you something about the academic situation.)
Everyone among the locals with demands on integrity, fairness and education strives for leaving this region by all means. (They call this cultural sphere a "shi!hole", and unfortunately justifiedly so.) I am currently helping one of the country´s best academic students to leave and study abroad. Because of it being a pity if he was wasted in morass.
Ricardo,
By all behavioral standards of deliberateness the one who exposes attributes of a believer is you.
Twisting around and rearranging chronological order of what has been laid out, allocating assumptions of shrouded sensation on me and displaying agitation altogether does not really lend the pragmatic stand that you claim for.
Im my surrounding I am known for honesty from early childhood on, and the characteristic was explicitly appreciated even by staff in boarding schools despite of me among the wildest kids who´d keep them busy most.
Also, I am being respected for sobriety and dedication to congruent and factual detail for as far as I can. (Which is why folks come asking for advice, like with the example mentioned above.)
I could now ask friends to check their mail browser for messages from me in 2007 when I described the sightings, and verify that the description was the same back then. But I won´t.
Not at last, because me not basing a possible existence of extraterrestrial beings on my personal experience.
I have not even claimed that extraterrestrial beings must exist. (But I pointed to strange routines on official sides which shouldn´t occur.)
What I did was asking you fellows to see if you can get a hold on the Mufon series and come back to give your opinion.
Was that an offence?
I really don´t know which UFO may have dropped a manure heap before your front door, or whether an alien pinched your admired maid or whatever that you are getting your knickers in such a twist.
My suggestion is to relax, prepare yourself a nice hot milk with honey and oregano, lay back and maybe watch that Mufon thing.
Then let us know your most welcome take on it.
Is that asking too much? Is it not fair? Is it disrespectful? Does it deserve aggression?
Now, be good fellas and see whether you can watch first what you classify in advance.
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Date Aug. 5 2016 13:34:08
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