RE: Saddle and nut help

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Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Saddle and nut help (in reply to joaogvaz)

It's not the angle but the height Ruphus probably got a bit muddled, as the higher the saddle the greater than angle. The higher the string are from the sound board the more torque is put through the soundboard. It acts as a lever. I find too much torque can strngle the sound of a guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2015 14:50:47

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Saddle and nut help (in reply to Blondie#2)

There are many aspects involved like the heigh of the strings off the top, the torque at the bridge, the steep angle of the strings on the saddle etc.
Al Carruth said that he measured a perceivable difference when increasing the string angle of 5 degrees or more (if I'm not wrong) but he didn't measure the influence of other factors (like the heigh off the top of istance) which end up affecting the tone as well. You can make your own conclusion by replacing your saddle.
Anyways IMHO the point is just that you should consider the whole geometry of the guitar.
I myself usually find comfortable guitars around 7 mm at the bridge, 8/9 mm at the rosette and a little more than 3 mm at the bridge. The sound is a different matter obviously...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2015 15:16:21

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Saddle and nut help (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Alan Carruth is extremely knowledgeable on the physics and engineering of guitars who was reference by Echi. Echi, good choice on using Alan. Below is a link to his articles. He has a couple of other articles, one being ports which is a topic that pops up every now and then.

http://www.alcarruthluthier.com/Acoustics.htm

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2015 15:30:50

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Saddle and nut help (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

It's not the angle but the height Ruphus probably got a bit muddled, as the higher the saddle the greater than angle. The higher the string are from the sound board the more torque is put through the soundboard. It acts as a lever. I find too much torque can strngle the sound of a guitar.

I was saying the same thing. Nijet, muddle. ;O)

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2015 16:46:33

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Saddle and nut help (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Or maybe you arent getting it.
Meassuring the 12th fret stringheight is a waste of time if the nut is not correct. and if its correct, then there's no need for the capo.
I use the capo on 3rd fret to check the nut!!!

Ok, one last try:

Capo at 1. Nut is high. Measurement at 12th fret = 2mm

Capo at 1. Nut at proper height. Measurement at 12th fret = 2mm

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2015 0:37:07

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Saddle and nut help (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Suppose the scale is 650mm. That is, distance from nut to 12th fret is 325mm, distance from 12th fret to saddle is 326.5mm, a typical 1.5mm "setback" for classical guitar.

Capo at 1. Nut height makes no difference. String height at 12th fret is 2 mm. Saddle has to be 4.129 mm above the plane of the frets to achieve this.

Now take off the capo. The nut height matters now. I like it to be about 0.5mm above the plane of the frets. This makes the string 2.3 mm above the 12th fret, not 2 mm.

With no setback, the distance at the 12th fret would be even a tiny bit higher with no capo and the nut 0.5mm above the plane of the frets.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2015 2:53:46

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Saddle and nut help (in reply to Ruphus)

Blondie2

the effect of raising the saddle is mainly to have the strings buzz less. I say less, because IMHO buzzing is part of the flamenco sound. Its about finding the sweet spot and it is often a little higher than what most players think. When the string vibrates better, it is capable of dragging more of the inner "growl" out of the guitar which is a very flamenco sound. This is easyer to hear on cypress guitars than on others and cypress guitars are normally the ones gaining the most from not having a to low setup.

There are (at least) 2 problems with this 12th fret meassuring :
*As has already been said by various, its just a part of a gran total. There are various factors working together.
* A lot of players understand that 12th fret meassuring and not the rest and they go very cerebral about it. Like its the holy grail of the flamenco guitar, which is all wrong. When you fix your mind so much on one little part of the whole, you miss the capacity to hear/feel/live the whole. (and after that we end up with the 200 threads about stringheight at 12th fret

)

When I say corrected frets, I mean levelled and crowned. Its absurd to talk setup with poorly fitted frets.

When leaving the same guitar to be blind tested by a couple of good guitarists, they were surprised that they actually prefered a guitar with a higher setup than what their cerebral attitude had told them.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2015 7:21:16

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Saddle and nut help (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

Ok, I have to give up on this one.

Forget it's a guitar and think about triangles, that might help.

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2015 12:23:45

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Saddle and nut help (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

It's not the angle but the height Ruphus probably got a bit muddled, as the higher the saddle the greater than angle. The higher the string are from the sound board the more torque is put through the soundboard. It acts as a lever. I find too much torque can strngle the sound of a guitar.

I was saying the same thing. Nijet, muddle. ;O)

Ruphus

This has nothing to do with the issue...or at most nominally or unpercievabley. Perhaps those that advacote a steep break angle, never experienced a guitar with break angle ZERO that was plenty loud enough. I have...and when we fixed it the guitar was not louder. The way a guitar ends up with a zero break angle is that the hole slots get worn out in the tie block, or the neck angle changes due to humidity/time and bone has to come down too far. The only problem with a zero break angle is there will be a loud buzzing as the string wacks against the bone saddle when played hard. Fill and re drill of string holes fixes the problem.

The only reason a guitar seems louder with a higher action is because it can be played hard. Or rather, when played and the string slaps against a fret over the fingerboard, the energy is lost immediately. So if the action over the fingerboard is higher, the string is free to move and express that energy that you might have been putting in but in vain on a low action set up. Also if you have the bass strings higher action than trebs, any guitar with extra bass projection appears to be "louder" than otherwise.

I think the point being made about 12 fret measures is that, IF one has ALREADY set up the nut properly, then capo standard or no capo standard (.5mm high or low) is arbitrary.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2015 14:43:19

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Saddle and nut help (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Sr. Martins,

No one has said it doesn't work. To quote Anders "The capo trick is good to get a fast idea about how things are working. I use it myself. "

The problem I can see is that you then have to bring in a whole new set rules in order to calculate the action at the 12th.

You could make adjustments like Dudnote suggested but then you would have know what the action is at the 13th fret and ignore the 12th all together.

However if I make sure the nut is correct in the first place, taking up a grand total of 10 seconds of my time, then I won't have to worry about all of the above. If the nut is high it will have to be lowered regardless of any action change you want to do in order for the guitar to be playable. I can then calculate the required change of height using the 2:1 ratio with no faff.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2015 14:51:10

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Saddle and nut help (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I think the point being made about 12 fret measures is that, IF one has ALREADY set up the nut properly, then capo standard or no capo standard (.5mm high or low) is arbitrary.

The point of capo at1 for measuring height at 12 as nothing to do with setting up the guitar and it doesn't matter if you've done the nut or not.. that's basically the point.

If all guitars were measured for action at 12 measured with capo at 1, it wouldn't matter how the nut was cut. There would be consistency.

The capo at 1 for action/capo at 3 for nut height also allows to set both things independently. I never set up nuts based on open strings because that depends on the saddle height. By using capo at 3, you rule out that variable and then you're able to find the optimal nut height.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2015 14:53:53

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Saddle and nut help (in reply to Stephen Eden)

I think Sr. Martins should run for president. He has a cause.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2015 15:05:06

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Saddle and nut help (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

I think Sr. Martins should run for president. He has a cause.

I know I don't build guitars but there's no big science to what I am saying. Simple maths and physics.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2015 15:29:08

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Saddle and nut help (in reply to Stephen Eden)

If it's not for setting up then why are you measuring? Perhaps to tell your buddies in the pub?

The nut gets worked independently from the saddle until it is as the optimum height. Therefor the saddle can then be worked to it's optimum height easily. I just don't get why you think it needs to be made harder for what I can see as converging on the perfect setup.

Surely no one wants to play with a high nut it should be the same height if not a fraction taller than the 1st fret. There is no need for the nut to be treated any differently.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2015 15:43:28

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Saddle and nut help (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

If it's not for setting up then why are you measuring? Perhaps to tell your buddies in the pub?

The nut gets worked independently from the saddle until it is as the optimum height. Therefor the saddle can then be worked to it's optimum height easily. I just don't get why you think it needs to be made harder for what I can see as converging on the perfect setup.

Surely no one wants to play with a high nut it should be the same height if not a fraction taller than the 1st fret. There is no need for the nut to be treated any differently.

Awesome.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2015 17:36:55