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Neotriz

Posts: 143
Joined: Aug. 9 2010
 

Needs some advise (Brazilian Rosewoo... 

Hello all
About two weeks ago, I stopped by at Sevilla to visit Jesus Jimenez at his shop.
Long story short, I bought a guitar from him.

What I didn't know was (which I am waiting confirmation in the email from Jimenez) is that I may have a Brazilian Rosewood. Can one of you identify if this is the case (attached picture).

Normally I don't really look into what the guitar is made of when purchasing, as long as it plays nice. Unfortunately I didn't realize Brazilian Rosewood is a big deal of importing/exporting in US.

After briefly reading up on this issue, I may have screwed myself up.

Do you guys have any suggestion (if the guitar is actually made of Brazilian Rosewood) on what I can do to return to US safely?

Attachment (4)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2015 21:56:42
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1539
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Neotriz

It is hard to say definitively from photos, though from what I see it could very well be Brazilian.

It is actually easy to tell by the smell.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2015 0:55:36
 
Neotriz

Posts: 143
Joined: Aug. 9 2010
 

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Neotriz

Yeah, I dont have really good sense of smell. Supposdly it should smell "spicy".

I found some information about it here:

http://www.acousticmusic.org/CITES-and-ESA-sp-78.html

According to them:
quote:

To travel with an instrument with any of the controlled materials, you will need an export permit from the US and an import permit from the destination country. An export permit is granted if “a Scientific Authority of the State of export has advised that such export will not be detrimental to the survival of that species” and the material “was not obtained in contravention of the laws of that State for the protection of fauna and flora.” For the import permit, you will need proof that you are not importing the materials “primarily for commercial purposes.”


Sigh

Now I am debating whether this guitar is worth coming back to US.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2015 7:27:58
 
Neotriz

Posts: 143
Joined: Aug. 9 2010
 

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Neotriz

More pictures for better clarification

Attachment (3)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2015 9:45:50
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1539
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Neotriz

I don't know how to describe the smell in words other than to say it is a very pleasant smell. But once you know it, you don't forget it.

I wonder how the customs officials "know" what kind of wood your guitar is made of. By its appearance, it COULD be African blackwood, or Malaysian blackwood, or Macassar ebony, or something else.
See: http://www.lmii.com/products/mostly-wood/backs-sides

Brazillian rosewood is very expensive. A back-and-sides set costs around $1000 - $1500 US. Those other woods I mentioned cost around a third of that. If your guitar is Brazillian, the maker should have told you and charged accordingly.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2015 12:48:34
 
tijeretamiel

 

Posts: 438
Joined: Jan. 6 2012
 

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Neotriz

It definitely looks like Braz.

Some guitar makers might have CITES documentation which might allow you to bring the guitar back 'officially'.

Otherwise it could be a bit of a gamble. US Customs are supposed to be a scary bunch!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2015 13:03:39
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Neotriz

no guitar should be built with this material post 1992(?) without a certificate. This wood has been protected since 1960!!! So only wood cut before that and stored should technically have been used....and I think it was 2004 that guitar builders finally felt the sting. That goes for face plate veneered headstocks and bridges! Scary gamble...plus customs guys can be wrong and with no papers can hold the guitar "just in case".....or so I have heard.

If it were me I would have the build get you some paperwork on it...or....change the date on the lable and just pretend the guitar is your old family airloom you are taking back and forth on vacation. I once brought a new guitar back from spain (2005) and the customs guy just wanted to see me play it....I said I bought it in USA and was coming back from a vacation, no problems. Most likely the horror stories come from one in 10,000 situations, so it's a gamble but not a real dangerous one IMO. A very friendly and assured attitude might help....it has helped me in the past with simple things like preventing a gate checked guitar etc.

But that sure looks like brazilian rosewood which was 100% for sure acquired and used illegally IMO.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2015 19:06:15
 
Neotriz

Posts: 143
Joined: Aug. 9 2010
 

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Neotriz

Thanks for the responds guys. Still waiting on Jimenez's respond...

constructordeguitarras, he did it charge me accordingly which leads me to believe that it is indeed Brazilian rosewood (also supposdly it is the same model he made for Manolo Sanlucar back in 2008).

Ricardo, can you recall the procedure you had to go through when entering the US custom?

During my past travels, I do not remember taking my guitar out of my case and showing to the border patrol..neither passing the security at the gate.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2015 22:48:09
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Neotriz

You need to get a sales receipt AND a xerox copy of the makers sales receipt for the wood showing what it is and where he bought it. You need to clarify if it is Brazilian Rosewood or just some rosewood from Brazil.

You should check the US Customs rules and regulations on importation of Brazilian rosewood. You have make sure you are in compliance with the Lacey Act and the US Dept. of Agriculture rules on this species, legally speaking.

_____________________________

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2015 1:45:11
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Neotriz

I´m sorry to hear that you didnt know what you bought. The Luthier should have told you and he´s looking for trouble selling the guitar to some one from outside the European Union.

So-----Stop.
If the wood doesnt have CITES papers, dont take it anywhere. In the US, there´s a good chance its gonna be confiscated and its a crime to change papers etc and from my information it is being taken pretty serious.

It might not be Braz rosewood, but you will not know. Looks doesnt tell you anything and even smell cant be trusted.
Some 8 - 10 years ago, Spanish Guardia Civil blocked the sale of a wood called "Caviuna" that Maderas Barber stocked. It looked like and smelled 100% like Dalberghia Nigra. I have a few small pieces that i wont use because it may cause trouble
After making laberatory test, the wood was found not to be Dalberhia Nigra and released. This is just to tell how difficult it might be to check wood.

The whole Braz rosewood situation is rotten. Its looking for trouble dealing with it. Its a bag full of trouble, cheating, scam, problems. Guitars made of dump sounding pretty Southamerican woods and sold as Braz rosewood...Its Lutherie when its worst. (or like the rest of the world).

If the builder cant give you CITES papers, I would return the guitar and tell the builder to give you the money back. If he refuses, I would tell him that it would mean contacting Guardia Civil and your US lawyer. It is illegal to deal with Brazilean Rosewood without CITES papers. How long you in reality want to go with this is up to you, but there´s a good chance that he will give you the money back (and hate you afterwards when he should hate himself for being the bad guy)

The spanish, incl. the guitarbuilders have to wake up and understand that there´s a world that works differently outside their little mumbojumbo and that this other world has consequenses even for themselves. They cant just continue saying "no pasa nada". There are no excuses anymore. All builders know what is going on. Its an OLD story.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2015 7:08:53
 
Neotriz

Posts: 143
Joined: Aug. 9 2010
 

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Neotriz

Just received an email from Jimenez.

Indeed it is Brazilian Rosewood (Aros y fondo de Palosanto de Rio).

From he is telling I "shouldn't" worry about it since I will be carrying with me if I dont get it check.
That's definitely a red flag...

As Anders mention, I will ask him about CITES documents or otherwise I will have to return it or yet call up authorities..

What a hassle this came to be..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2015 7:18:21
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Neotriz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neotriz

Just received an email from Jimenez.

Indeed it is Brazilian Rosewood (Aros y fondo de Palosanto de Rio).

From he is telling I "shouldn't" worry about it since I will be carrying with me if I dont get it check.
That's definitely a red flag...

As Anders mention, I will ask him about CITES documents or otherwise I will have to return it or yet call up authorities..

What a hassle this came to be..


Anders is totally right, and that is super caution way to go about it.

I will tell you the procedure went through bringing new bought guitars home from spain:
1. I try keep my guitar in hand getting on plane. Get there EARLY....paying early boarding fee might help but not gaurantee, otherwise I may have to gate check my guitar in spain. Usually international flights have space on board...but be NICE (unless you are first class then you can be a jerk about it ). Like I said, nice gets you far.
2. Fill out customs form, declare gifts and souveniers you bought in Spain up to $800...anything over they will charge you for. So you have to say the guitar is your personal item you took with you. I think it is just plain dumb to point attention to yourself by declaring a guitar or any larger purchase.
3. Take guitar pick up bags (sometimes both if you had gate checked they sometimes send your thing through special baggage claim anyway...jerks)...and customs form and passport through customs. If you are USA citizen GREAT!!!! If not...it's probably A LOT trickier to bring your guitar through.

The cusoms are like policeman they pick people at random to check...no time for everybody. They are looking for suspicious characters, but have to not be discrimenatory so they will randomly check the lady with tons of bags and 5 annoying kids .... but what tehy really want are DRUGS, CASH, FOOD....those are big problems be hiding in your bags or person. A guitar case could attract attention as it's a nice place to stash stuff. I would say woods is NOT a priorty, and those horror stories of confiscation are like 1 in millions of travelers that slip by every day. I have shown my guitar only handful of times to customs guys the hundreds of times I have traveled. That is why the builder is not worried. He builds tons of guitar probably and the odds of one of his guitars getting confiscated is very slim. I would personally go for it myself and just be like....dude you better build ne a knew one if they catch me at the gate with this!!!

What I would LOVE To hear about though....are PERSONAL horror stories.....you know things like "My Reyes was taken at border control and they still have it..." type of thing. I doubt there are many.

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www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2015 10:51:38
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Neotriz

I would get my money back or trade for another guitar. I would not travel into the US with a Brazilian rosewood guitar under any circumstances.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2015 14:10:38
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1904
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RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to estebanana

I have been told that a guitar send by Fedex? would arrive safely, Spain to USA. Send it to yourself.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2015 15:41:36
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Land of Daniel Boone

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Neotriz

the safe way is to get cites approved paperwork stating the brw is legal. you may have difficulty getting the guitar out of Europe as the EU now considers worked BRW after 1947 to be "illegal". The USA may be the least of your worries.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2015 21:08:01
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to keith

quote:

ORIGINAL: keith

the safe way is to get cites approved paperwork stating the brw is legal. you may have difficulty getting the guitar out of Europe as the EU now considers worked BRW after 1947 to be "illegal". The USA may be the least of your worries.


delayed flight from england year before last got in late to madrid...no police even working at customs...janitor waved the whole lot of us right through to baggage claim...

_____________________________

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2015 21:32:01
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Land of Daniel Boone

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Ricardo

some reading material. ricardo, the likelihood of confiscation may be low but when it happens it can be a nightmare as the guitar is confiscated and the owner has to prove it is legal.

http://www.fretboardjournal.com/features/magazine/guitar-lover%E2%80%99s-guide-cites-conservation-treaty

http://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/update-brazilian-rosewood-preconvention-imports-eu.pdf

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=335259
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2015 21:56:40
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Morante

quote:

I have been told that a guitar send by Fedex? would arrive safely, Spain to USA. Send it to yourself.


FedEx has the capability of and provides the service of expediting the instrument through US Customs as part of the delivery. It costs five to seven times as much as regular postal service and is subject to a bogus added on fuel surcharge that regular mail delivery does not add on.

The Fed Ex agents see that the item is taken through US Customs as a priority, and if the item is inspected they repack it, but Fed EX has no authority to stop US Customs from expecting the same legal paperwork for Brazilian rosewood.

In the end FedEx is a bit of a rip off, just to let people who want to send guitars know. The Fed Ex charges more than regular mail service, much more to the point of being abusive. And the regular mail service and Fed Ex items travel on the same aircraft, the freight of regular mail is consolidated and contracted to Fed EX as an international freight carrier. So that means all freight it arrives at it's destination at the same time. The service Fed Ex is providing is moving freight through customs and straight to home delivery. They have a kind of customs broker status that allows them to move their freight through customs independently. That is the service you are paying five times more for.

Going out of the US, US Postal Service is reliable, trackable and much cheaper, and goes just as fast as Fed EX. The only advantage is the country of destination may have a poor delivery system and complicated Customs procedure, Fed Ex will expedite though local customs and in company deliver without local freight handlers getting in the way.

Going into the US Fed Ex will expedite through Customs, but they have no power to bend laws or move illegally purchased agricultural goods. Wood is an agricultural product. And USPS now has a fast customs procedure.

In the end Fed Ex gives no advantage in the shipping of a CITES regulated agricultural product.

Shipping a Brazilian rosewood guitar without the proper papers is always going to be a calculated risk. You can never be sure who will be on duty in the customs booth that day.

And say you do luck out and get a Brazilian rosewood guitar into the US, the guitar is illegal and can't be taken across state borders legally or resold.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2015 0:57:17
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1539
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

can't be taken across state borders legally or resold


I hope our Police State USA hasn't yet reached the point where this could be a problem, Stephen.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2015 1:58:09
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3308
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Neotriz

I think you should request the seller to either provide you with a valid CITES certificate or demand your money back. You might need to engage an attorney, but it should be easy to demonstrate that the seller knowingly sold you (unbeknownst to yourself) a Brazilian Rosewood guitar. It is unconscionable that Brazilian Rosewood is CITES-listed as endangered wood, and yet a maker and seller continue to use it. They should be fined, and fined heavily.

And I don't think much of the idea of trying to sneak illegal Brazilian Rosewood into the United States or anywhere else. This is beautiful wood that is endangered. To support the illegal trafficking of such wood by trying to clandestinely ship it into the U.S. is not only illegal, it is morally obtuse as well. How many people trying to ship illegal Brazilian Rosewood into the U.S. would aid and abet the killing of rhinos for carvings made of their horn? Or the killing of elephants for their ivory tusks? Or the killing of tigers for their body parts considered to be potent medicine? Or catching sharks for their fins and throwing them back into the ocean alive to drown?

At one time I loved shark's fin soup. I used to eat it every time I found myself either passing through or staying in Hong Kong. But when you know how the fins are taken, it sours the taste. I stopped eating shark's fin soup long ago. I see no reason to illegally try and import a beautiful, disappearing wood like Brazilian Rosewood into the U.S., any more than I can condone the killing of rhinos, elephants, tigers, or sharks for their perceived attributes. To do so is to aid and abet a disgusting traffic in endangered species.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2015 2:33:42
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to constructordeguitarras

quote:

I hope our Police State USA hasn't yet reached the point where this could be a problem, Stephen.


That is law on the books, I doubt they are doing trunk searches. There is no priority to do searches.

But in the event a Brazilian rosewood guitar is stolen and then recovered by police, the police may ask for CITES paperwork before the guitar can be legally returned to the legal owner.

So if a guitar is stolen and the police recover it, they may want very much to give it back to you, but may be legally bound for you to prove the guitar is not CITES contraband. And now this opens the owner up to criminal charges of illegal import of Brazilian rosewood guitar. If the police wanted press this issue a fine would be levied against the original owner and the guitar would be confiscated. How's that for responsible selling?

So those who are saying sneak it into the US are giving some really bad legal advice.

Bringing Brazilian rosewood illegally breaks these laws: Lacey Act, US Dept. of Agriculture, CITES treaty and US Customs fees. That is why I would get my money back from the original maker who is painfully ignorant of how much potential jeopardy he placed his customer in.

The stakes are much lower with a cypress or verifiable Indian Rosewood guitar. I'd trade into one of those woods and declare it normally if asked. You also should file the paper work with the US Dept. of Agriculture and pay some import fee and keep the records. If the guitar is stolen the police will need these records to return the guitar to you.

Just saying that legally these are real issues.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2015 3:26:12
 
Neotriz

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RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Neotriz

Thanks for all the response guys.

I was able to convince Jesus to provide me some documents about the guitar's origin. I am still not quite sure if CITES needs some sort of official document that I need to provide..

I will keep you guys updated on the situation. I have until end of November to head back to US (I am a US Citizen).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2015 6:24:50
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Land of Daniel Boone

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Neotriz

here is the 9 page form that needs to be completed.

http://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-32.pdf
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2015 13:52:22
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Neotriz

Hey, come on.
I live in Spain and I export guitars.
You will need to fill a Lacey act document and have an invoice. If there´s Braz rosewood the documents, then it has to have official CITES papers. I repeat official CITES papers.
There is no go around. I would not trust some papers from his brother in laws sisters husband, whose boss used to work in blah blah (Spanish way)

If he cannot get those papers (and only those), then force him to take the guitar back. Tell him that if you are stopped in the US costum without the right documentation, then all responsabilities will fall back on the builder. Wheather that is true in reality is doubtfull, but you can always say so and its actually the way it should be and sometimes it is so.

And last.... I´ve lived here for 14 years. Spaniards are the sweetest people on earth, but dont trust them when buying something. they tell you whatever. They are "natural born used car salesmen"

And finally, dont just ship it to yourself. Its absolutely illegal.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2015 15:19:48
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Neotriz

Read this:

http://www.fretboardjournal.com/features/online/us-fish-and-wildlife-services-updated-not-really-policy-brazilian-rosewood

*What does “pre-Convention” mean? Section 23.5 of the regulations provides: “Pre-Convention means a specimen that was acquired (removed from the wild or born or propagated in a controlled environment) before the date the provisions of the Convention first applied to the species … and any product (including a manufactured item) or derivative made from such specimen.” So, if the rosewood the guitar maker used in building your guitar was chopped down before June 11, 1992, and the CITES import permit documents this, the guitar may be bought, sold, and otherwise used commercially.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2015 15:26:32
 
Perrate

 

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RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to estebanana

Thx Anders for your effort.
No pasa nada...this is no option.
I work as a social worker for asylum people here in swizerland.
I have one klient. I guess the only one in the hole country wich is from Madagascar.
He was a activist against the illegal wood depletion there. He has family and he has to leave the country because the wood mafia was not very amused about his work.
The german television made a docu about his work there.

Even Ebony, Cocobolo and some Rosewood species are endagerend species.
Responsible, especialy for Ebony, are the instrument builders around the world.
Imagine, they cut a big tree and 80% is just scrap. Only 20% (max) is for the market.
All this has a great impact for the nature and for the people there.
So why we need a brazilian rosewood guitar? Do I play better because of it? Or is it just prestige? Who hast to pay the price at the end of the day?

I write this with all respect to everyboy here on the forum. But we should think about it? We are responsible.

There are dealers with certified wood out there. In Europe for example FCS.
We should try to make it better.

By the way.... why not flamenco guitar with wood from your country. walnut or...
could be an interesting research
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2015 18:35:22
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Perrate

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perrate
Even Ebony, Cocobolo and some Rosewood species are endagerend species.
Responsible, especialy for Ebony, are the instrument builders around the world.
Imagine, they cut a big tree and 80% is just scrap. Only 20% (max) is for the market.
All this has a great impact for the nature and for the people there.


This is simply not true. Granted the trunk is the only valuable part of the tree so the leaves, bark and limbs are waste but the trunk, particularly of ebony trees is sawn very carefully to extract as much usable material as possible. I know this because I've done it myself.

By the way, consider the guitar maker's quandary. If the guitar doesn't have an ebony fingerboard it is considered sub-standard by most customers. I understand there are some people making substitute ebony fingerboards out of wood fibers and some kind of resin that simulate ebony perfectly and I completely approve of the idea but at present these fingerboards are prohibitively expensive.

_____________________________

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2015 21:22:57
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Perrate

quote:

Thx Anders for your effort.
No pasa nada...this is no option.
I work as a social worker for asylum people here in swizerland.
I have one klient. I guess the only one in the hole country wich is from Madagascar.
He was a activist against the illegal wood depletion there. He has family and he has to leave the country because the wood mafia was not very amused about his work.
The german television made a docu about his work there.

Even Ebony, Cocobolo and some Rosewood species are endagerend species.
Responsible, especialy for Ebony, are the instrument builders around the world.
Imagine, they cut a big tree and 80% is just scrap. Only 20% (max) is for the market.
All this has a great impact for the nature and for the people there.
So why we need a brazilian rosewood guitar? Do I play better because of it? Or is it just prestige? Who hast to pay the price at the end of the day?

I write this with all respect to everyboy here on the forum. But we should think about it? We are responsible.

There are dealers with certified wood out there. In Europe for example FCS.
We should try to make it better.

By the way.... why not flamenco guitar with wood from your country. walnut or...
could be an interesting research
 


You should not lecture the makers on the Foro save it for the Spanish makers who are baka (stupid) . The American's and the English makers have been offering alternative woods and native species not on any CITES lists for many years, but the guitar buying public is still under informed about these good choices.

Spread the word to guitar buyers to do better research before buying instruments made with rare and banned species instead of telling responsible makers how wood is harvested.

There are alternatives to ebony like Macassar ebony and alternatives to rare rosewoods like Indian rose wood cultivated for the purpose of instrument making. There are also alternatives to Cuban Cedar as neck material. The makers are aware of these issues, but the problem is with the public not wanting to compromise on what they misunderstand as good materials.

Another problem is with the Chinese wood harvesting industry which is internationally going forth and cutting wood in areas that countries playing by international rules are not cutting. Until enough pressure is put on China for it's rampant and irresponsible harvesting theres is not a lot of blame that can be placed on makers who source wood as carefully as possible by utilizing non tropical species.

Maple and spruce is being poached in the Balkans by Black marketers and gangs, there is much corruption. There is also no way to be absolutely sure the FSC products are completely piracy free. There is corruption governmental levels and pay offs to move wood across borders.

The guitar makers are ahead of the curve on conservation, and have been aware of illegal wood harvesting for many years. The guitar buying public still wants to be the last guy to get a rare wood guitar. This attitude has to change. Take the message to the buyer and the old world makers who still are asleep. The independent American makers have lead the way to sourcing alternatives to rare and illegally poached woods and were the first ones to break the cycles of using wood that is ill gotten. Give credit where credit is due, this issue has been in the fore front of independent American guitar making for two decades.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 28 2015 0:20:48
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3218
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to estebanana

Brazilian rosewood is legal to sell across international borders only if it was cut before going on the CITES list. You can move it across borders only if you have proof that it is pre-CITES, and you can import it into the US only if you comply with the Lacey Act, filling out all the paperwork.

That said, I have read that the Customs Service, etc. are not going after personal instruments. But that could change at any instant, and you would take a risk by breaking the law.

I have a spruce/Brazilian Contreras from 1991, which is pre-CITES for Brazilian, but the only evidence is the label in the guitar. It doesn't leave the USA.

When I ordered my classical from Abel Garcia in 2006, I asked him his opinion about wood for back and sides. He has published book on guitar making woods with a Mexican university press. He said he could make just as good a guitar from cocobolo, Indian rosewood or palo escrito. After a fairly long dissertation on wood, he concluded by saying that in his opinion, using Brazilian rosewood was "like putting jewelry on the guitar."

I told him I was old school and asked whether he had any Brazilian that was CITES certified. He said he did and I picked out a set. I forget the additional charge. It was at least several hundred bucks, maybe as much as $1000. The guitar was imported into the USA before the Lacey Act was amended in 2008 to cover wood, so the Customs Service was no problem, but the CITES papers are in a safe deposit box at the bank.

The rest of the guitars are cypress, cocobolo, Indian, etc. The only risk to the older guitars might be a bridge or a head veneer. The cedar/cypress '67 Ramirez is the travel guitar, and I would claim that neither the head veneer nor the bridge is Brazilian.

Slightly O.T.:

In 2010 I bought furniture in Vancouver, BC, Canada. It was made in Denmark in the 1960s, described as "Brazilian Rosewood." The dining table and eight chairs are solid, the sideboard is veneered. It looks like Brazilian to me, and if it is, it is certainly pre-Cites. After all, it was the Scandinavian furniture makers that used up all the Brazilian rosewood, not guitar makers.

I asked the furniture dealer whether he had problems with U.S. Customs. He said their usual method was to load up a van, drive to Bellingham, Washington and ship from there. He said they had one van load held up at the border in 2008, right after the Lacey Act was amended. They hired a wood biologist from a Canadian university and proved that it wasn't really Brazilian rosewood. Smoke and mirrors in the furniture business 50 years ago.

So I have my doubts about what my dining room furniture is really made of. If they came and took it away, I would hire someone to have a look at it, on the chance that it might not really be Brazilian rosewood. I like it, but I'm not nearly as attached to it as I am to certain guitars.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 28 2015 3:09:20
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Needs some advise (Brazilian Ros... (in reply to Neotriz

Hey please guys and admin.
MAKE A NEW THREAD. about politics, money and woodmafias and leave this for what it is.
This guys needs help so try keeping this thread clean OK?.

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 28 2015 6:55:09
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