Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Flamenco review in todays SPIEGEL online   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>Product Reviews >> Page: [1]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

Flamenco review in todays SPIEGEL online 

The genre today had the honor of being mentioned in the online site of "Der Spiegel".

I sent it through google tranlastor and ironed out the most missing out parts.
quote:

El rubio con barba - the blonde with the beard, such the members of the ensemble Festival Flamenco Gitano called the enthusiastic young man who brought them on 15 November 1965 after a concert at the Berlin Titania Palast to record in a recording studio directly on the wall. Siggi Loch wanted by all means to release an album of the band that was touring through Europe.

"It was about authentic Flamenco, plans for a flamenco-jazz fusion did not exist back then," said Loch, who three decades later would become initiator of internationally esteemed jazz-flamenco recordings. His productions of the Festival Flamenco Gitano original of 1965/66 will be appearing at the end of the month as a double CD.

Jazz and flamenco: Vitale rhythms and improvisation determine the two musical genres. Both are hybrids of several influences. Their protagonists - Blacks in America and Gitanos (literally translated "Gypsy") in Spain - originating from disadvantaged minorities. From there it was only obvious to lable the flamenco as "Iberian Blues".

With "Sketches of Spain" in 1960 two Americans recorded the first successful jazz-flamenco album: Miles Davis and Gil Evans. For Spain's jazz musicians flamenco was no topic; at that time they like all of their European colleagues were aiming for US idols. Jazz stood for cosmopolitanism; national folklore was considered bitchy.

When the German Jazz Promoter Joachim Ernst Berendt was seeking Spanish flamenco jazz musicians in 1967 at the Berlin Jazz Festival for "Jazz meets the World", he found only the saxophonist Pedro Iturralde. On special request ("a guitarist ought to participate") Iturralde brought Paco de Lucía with himself. The then just 20-year-old was one of the first open-minded from the flamenco stock. Commuters had to have courage: Because the "purity" of the respective genres next to the legendary "jazz police" was observed by a "flamenco police".

Proud Art in bad bars

True is that flamenco was already being presented in a form of kitsch long ago. Accordingly, the poet Garcia Lorca lamented in 1922, that the proud art of deep inner singing (cante jondo) was heard in bad pubs and brothels. In the early sixties the German Spain- and jazz expert Olaf Hudtwalcker wrote about the transformation of the "ritual substance of flamenco dance into a striptease-substitute". Flamenco as a shallow nightclub entertainment for tourists.

But also the serious study of the Flamenco was controversial. So American musicians such as Miles Davis and John Coltrane were blamed for approaching this music from a dominant jazz perspective and that they were merely decorating jazz with exotic elements. Participants in flamenco jazz projects would "not really make love with each other" uttered the Spanish drummer Marc Miralta. The pianist Chano Dominguez dreamed of an "equal marriage of flamenco and jazz."


Dominguez (55) from the Andalusian Cadiz is at home in the jazz as well as in the flamenco. His definite succeeding with a fusion is documented with his new album with the WDR Big Band "Soleando". Along with Dominguez two Spanish percussionists and the flamenco singer Blas Córdoba joined the orchestra, that had already recorded "Jazzpana" in 1992 with the same guest conductor Vince Mendoza and with Spanish and American soloists . The project was established in 2000 and continued in 2015 with Dominguez. It is a milestone in the history of the Nuevo Flamenco.

Characteristic of this contemporary music are instruments that are not found in traditional flamenco - like piano or saxophone. And the ever since to the flamenco belonging guitars enrich the music with unheard harmonies. Sophisticated rhythms are also generated with handclaps and finger snapping. Further, steps of dancers coming in like percussion solos. It is for instance how things are with the new CD of Maria Serrano, who is being celebrated as the "Queen of Flamenco". Dance as acoustically perceivable art - which only is to be had in Flamenco.

Current flamenco CDs :

"The Festival Flamenco Gitano Original & Da Capo " ( ACT ) , 2 CD set , from 30. 10. commercially

Chano Dominguez & WDR Big Band : " Soleando " ( Delta Music / WDR )

Maria Serrano : " Flamenco Por Derecho " ( Connector Records / Inakustik )

Gerardo Nunez , ULF WAKENIUS , Chano Dominguez : " Jazzpana Live " ( ACT )
http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/musik-neuheiten-neue-alben-vereinen-jazz-und-flamenco-a-1056850.html

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2015 10:57:22
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Flamenco review in todays SPIEGE... (in reply to Ruphus

Flamenco jazz does not exist. It is just jazz.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2015 14:54:23
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Flamenco review in todays SPIEGE... (in reply to Morante

quote:

Flamenco jazz does not exist. It is just jazz.


How would you define the mix of concepts from both genres? Flamenco jazz or Jazz flamenco is simple and it's pretty clear what the listener should expect... do you have a better one?

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2015 15:10:09
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Flamenco review in todays SPIEGE... (in reply to Ruphus

I feel better about calling it Spanish jazz.......

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2015 16:18:26
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Flamenco review in todays SPIEGE... (in reply to Ruphus

I think what Morante means is that there has been no fusion, and in view of the trials known to me I can only agree to that.

The project that seems most integrated to me was the one of heavy metal guys with that impressive guitarist, which you pointed out to me once.

But I´m waiting for some slower, heavy or laid-back rock with truly merged elements of flamenco, and / or jazz that be embracing flamenco music.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2015 17:58:26
 
Perrate

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Jul. 23 2015
 

RE: Flamenco review in todays SPIEGE... (in reply to Ruphus

Boring article....

If there is existing a fusion or not .... I don`t care.
Flamenco it self comes out of different roots.

It works always... see vicente amigos new CD (spanish-celtic)
Radio tarifa etc.
at the end of the day...it`s all flamenco.
El compas de la solea, tango o buleria...eso es.

But one of the most fascinating project for me was Morentes OMEGA.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2015 18:12:00
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Flamenco review in todays SPIEGE... (in reply to Ruphus

When the need for another description arises, I am sure the distinction will be made. When I read "flamenco jazz" I know what it means.. even though I don't really like it.

Spanish jazz for instance would be a term that could mislead people.


For that reason, I am also ok with "new age flamenco" and similar descriptions. If it was called "guitar/spain" I could be tricked into listening to it.

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2015 18:13:29
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Flamenco review in todays SPIEGE... (in reply to Ruphus

Okay here's the different genres names to lessen confusion.

1. Flamenco palos played by non-traditional instruments
2. Flamenco guitarists trying to play jazz
3. Jazz musicians incorporating tiny pieces of flamenco and Spanish music
4. Flamenco musicians incorporating tiny pieces of jazz

A little wordy maybe, we could abbreviate it!

1. FPPNTI
2. FGTPJ
3. JMITPFSM
4. FMITPJ

There we go! No confusion! Easy cheesy!

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2015 18:49:34
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Flamenco review in todays SPIEGE... (in reply to Leñador

That's exactly why I am ok with "flamenco jazz", I won't be listening to any of that anyways.

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2015 18:57:37
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco review in todays SPIEGE... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

With "Sketches of Spain" in 1960 two Americans recorded the first successful jazz-flamenco album: Miles Davis and Gil Evans.


ah, no...this was first:

http://youtu.be/fEujhwMIW9w

recorded nov.3 1958 in NYC. True fusion of both styles. Miles Davis only had flamenco elements such as the scale and the titles "solea" for example, is NOT a solea.

Later on RUMBA, a debatable pure flamenco form, as per it's ida y vuelta nature, opened up to latin music, which is sometimes called Salsa, and when done instrumental often called "latin Jazz"...to contrast with "straight ahead jazz" or "swing" type big band music. To this day nothing has really changed in that regard...you can hear in piano used with salsa type patterns over rumba gitana all the time. Later, PDL fused more rumbas with the guitar trio, incorparting things he learned from fusion vamps and waltz grooves, BACK into his flamenco compositions. (Everybody and his brother uses that Meeting of the Spirits Mahavishnu arp for some flamenco thing or other these days, or the "Passion Grace and Fire" al dimeola lick for buleria/siguiriya cross string arp rolling falsetas...standard flamenco schtick these days).

There was only one proper fusion done I am aware of called "Chiquito" where PDL took the tricky compas of Solea/Alegrias and overlaid a complex harmonic chart of chords over which they improvised solos. The genre called "Jazz fusion" covered a wide range of things going on 70-80's before "smooth jazz" took over. So best to refer to that piece by PDL as "Jazz fusion flamenco fusion"...as it's not necessarily straight ahead jazz due to the rhythm.

Carlos above is one of the first, and of the few, that is fusing his flamenco style of playing with straight ahead Jazz. Around this time, Juan Serrano also did his buleria version of Autumn Leaves, a straight ahead jazz standard, that I would consider also "jazz and flamenco fusion"...

So it really comes down to specifics again.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2015 20:19:50
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Flamenco review in todays SPIEGE... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ah, no...this was first:

http://youtu.be/fEujhwMIW9w



That sucks soooo much!!


Of course, just my opinion/taste.

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2015 20:55:04
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Flamenco review in todays SPIEGE... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Juan Serrano also did his buleria version of Autumn Leaves, a straight ahead jazz standard, that I would consider also "jazz and flamenco fusion"...


I would consider it something shorter and somewhat more colourful.

Here are a few lines from an interview I did with Juan in 1987:

On one of your albums, you recorded Flamenco Variations on Autumn Leaves. That’s not exactly pure Flamenco, is it?

No.

So what made you record this?

Make money! Of course! I don’t want to lie. The record company said “If you record something they like, we are going to sell a lot more albums. And not only will you make more discs, your name will become very well known; because you will reach, not only the flamenco people, like now, but everyone else. Pay attention to that!”

When I was young, people considered me traditional. But flamenco people didn’t buy the records.

They spoke well of me. You ask La Paquera? “Oh, I want to record with him, because he’s the best”. Antonio Mairena said the same, Jarrito, Los Pelaos… any time they were asked what guitarist they wanted, they said “I want Juanito”.

But I wasn’t making any money at this time, because flamenco people don’t buy records—they don’t even have the money. Besides, as I said a while ago, to reach another audience you have to do something they will understand. And what they understand is Impressions of New York.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2015 20:56:37
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Flamenco review in todays SPIEGE... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

http://youtu.be/fEujhwMIW9w

I don't like it but it still might be my favorite thing Carlos has done lol

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2015 23:48:02
 
Perrate

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Jul. 23 2015
 

RE: Flamenco review in todays SPIEGE... (in reply to Leñador

I did not know this one from Carlos.... really spunky for that time.
We forgot the
Flamenco players who play with italian Barocque musicians (fpwpwibm)

For me one of the best ever:


The musicians are just wonderful and Pepe is magic
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 12 2015 7:38:50
 
DavRom

 

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: Flamenco review in todays SPIEGE... (in reply to Ruphus

it's all art, so a matter of opinion. no right, no wrong

but categories of genre should be open to debate

in the end all i really care is, does it turn me on
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2015 9:19:38
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Flamenco review in todays SPIEGE... (in reply to Ruphus

Very nice video of our brilliant and ever so humble Paco. Thanks for the link, Perrante!

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2015 12:50:19
 
El Rey De los Bagres

 

Posts: 86
Joined: Apr. 29 2014
 

RE: Flamenco review in todays SPIEGE... (in reply to Perrate

quote:

I did not know this one from Carlos.... really spunky for that time.
We forgot the
Flamenco players who play with italian Barocque musicians (fpwpwibm)

For me one of the best ever:


Wow how did i miss this, what a beautiful piece of music.

_____________________________

♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪ Olé Bagreeee!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2015 19:45:59
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Flamenco review in todays SPIEGE... (in reply to El Rey De los Bagres

quote:

Wow how did i miss this, what a beautiful piece of music.


I've been looking for more of this... no luck

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2015 1:18:17
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Flamenco review in todays SPIEGE... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:


We forgot the
Flamenco players who play with italian Barocque musicians (fpwpwibm)

I missed that too, great stuff!!

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2015 3:34:29
 
El Rey De los Bagres

 

Posts: 86
Joined: Apr. 29 2014
 

RE: Flamenco review in todays SPIEGE... (in reply to Sr. Martins

Me too

_____________________________

♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪ Olé Bagreeee!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2015 14:21:08
 
Perrate

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Jul. 23 2015
 

RE: Flamenco review in todays SPIEGE... (in reply to El Rey De los Bagres

I wondering why the are no more flamenco/classic music fusion.
This works so well togethter.
Camaron records like nana de caballo or Nino Miguels walz is epic!

So, if sombody knows more in this....let me konow!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2015 10:53:07
Page:   [1]
All Forums >>Discussions >>Product Reviews >> Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.078125 secs.