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RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?!
RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to estebanana)
After I played Bach's Chaconne in a masterclass, JW took my guitar to show me how his transcription is far superior than Segovia's. Well, what do you know? He made a ton of buzzes and missed notes. He was perfect in the concert the day after. Weird, right?
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
The best classical players and flamenco players are a different breed than the rest of us. John Williams excluded...he's a robot.
I call for duel between you and Ricardo.
Many times I have seen Williams quoted, and I have heard him say in person, that he likes for "the music to speak for itself." He goes on to explain that he doesn't like to impose too much of a personal interpretation on a piece.
I have heard Williams play beautifully and expressively, and I have heard him play in a way that impressed me as soulless and robotic. Technically perfect always: no missed notes, no awkward hesitations, no uncontrolled tonal variations.
Inevitably a performance is an interpretation, whether it is dynamically flat and metronomic, or it shapes the phrases by the usual techniques. I have really enjoyed some of Wiliams' interpretations, both in recordings and in person. Other have left me cold.
RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Grisha)
quote:
After I played Bach's Chaconne in a masterclass, JW took my guitar to show me how his transcription is far superior than Segovia's. Well, what do you know? He made a ton of buzzes and missed notes. He was perfect in the concert the day after. Weird, right?
JW does not like Segovia, he wrote about it in his book.
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
After I played Bach's Chaconne in a masterclass, JW took my guitar to show me how his transcription is far superior than Segovia's. Well, what do you know? He made a ton of buzzes and missed notes. He was perfect in the concert the day after. Weird, right?
JW does not like Segovia, he wrote about it in his book.
Yes, and it was because of personal stuff when he was a kid, not just artistically. I think Segovia cussed him out over the phone and his dad got mad and hung up the phone or whatever, because as a kid he refused to enter a rigged competition. I can imagine it was emotional and if he was being sloppy in class it could be because of those emotions plus...I hear he is not super keen on teaching anyway. Those master class things are EXPECTED of certain artists. I know even Nuñez has been forced to do it as part of a performance contract...and he is a guy that actually enjoys teaching! But only one week a year.
Here is an example why I find the guy superior. This piece is normally an interesting violin show off piece, but this guy is giving it a lot of spanish flavor IMO. Not perfect rhythm or notes, there are slips, but he has a great strong tone and expression. The variation is especially nice at 2:55 vs the original. And finally, I believe he composed his OWN variation in there.
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
...I hear he is not super keen on teaching anyway. Those master class things are EXPECTED of certain artists. I know even Nuñez has been forced to do it as part of a performance contract...and he is a guy that actually enjoys teaching! But only one week a year.
Here is an example why I find the guy superior. This piece is normally an interesting violin show off piece, but this guy is giving it a lot of spanish flavor IMO. Not perfect rhythm or notes, there are slips, but he has a great strong tone and expression. The variation is especially nice at 2:55 vs the original. And finally, I believe he composed his OWN variation in there.
Excellent. Williams on top expressive form. Yes there are tiny technical blips, but the overall security of technique is impressive.
I audited a Williams master class at the 2003 Guitar Foundation of America convention in Merida, Yucatan. The first player was a young woman who played a simple piece, clearly suffering from nerves. Williams praised and encouraged her, while offering no suggestions whatsoever. Williams invited questions from the audience.
The man next to me on the second row was an ophthalmologist with whom I had chatted a bit on earlier days. He seemed to be a mild mannered and unassuming person. He asked Williams, "How would you have played it?"
Williams was visibly annoyed, and said with some asperity, "Can't you see what I am trying to do here?"
The next player, as I recall it, was 18-year old Cecilio Perera Villanueva, who went on to take second place in the competition. I thought he should have been first. He played a movement of a Brouwer sonata. It was breathtaking. While the students played Williams sat on the first row, instead of sharing the stage and perhaps distracting from their performance. When Cecilio finished Williams stood and asked, "Do you play the rest of it?" Cecilio complied.
I noticed the professional guitarists in the room paying very close attention. i thought some of them even looked a bit stunned. When Cecilio finished, Williams stepped onto the stage and said, "All I can say is that if Leo Brouwer were here today, he would be a very happy man." He asked if the audience had any questions--for Cecilio.
The last player did Ponce's "Variations and Fugue on la Folia." He got out all the notes, in tempo, no technical problems, but I felt the interpretation left a good deal to be desired. Williams stood and talked for several minutes about his dislike of competitions, his refusal to be on juries, etc. etc. Then he gave a nonstop two-minute critique of the performance, with no interaction with the student at all.
Williams' concert the closing night of the convention was the big deal of the week. It was given in the large and ornate Opera House. Giant posters of Williams adorned the downtown streets of Merida. The house was packed. Merida's elite turned out for the event.
I was disappointed. The first half was a sequence of short Latin American pieces from the disk "El Diablo Suelto." I was amazed. He played with nearly no dynamics or rhythmic swing. There was no metric distinction between a seis por derecho, a valse venezolano, "Alma Llanera"...it sounded almost like a midi rendering of the scores he was reading.
Just about everyone applauded vigorously.
The second half was Bach's "Chaconne" from the second violin partita. Again, no dynamics, no agogic accents, just the notes, one after another. It was as though Williams was on autopilot. I have heard him play the piece well on a recording, but this was not that performance.
When I grumbled to an acquaintance, he replied, "Maybe he was just having a bad night."
I suppose Williams' technical mastery may lead me to assume he always does exactly what he intends to do. But maybe not?
RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to estebanana)
You like Paginini's music? Most of his work is very idiomatic violin show off stuff. It's ok a half of the caprices are good, just not things I want to hear everyday. He wrote some nice guitar music.
I will say I like Ruggiero Ricci's Paganini, he really nailed it. He's my guy.
RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Yes, and it was because of personal stuff when he was a kid, not just artistically. I think Segovia cussed him out over the phone and his dad got mad and hung up the phone or whatever, because as a kid he refused to enter a rigged competition. I can imagine it was emotional and if he was being sloppy in class it could be because of those emotions plus...I hear he is not super keen on teaching anyway. Those master class things are EXPECTED of certain artists. I know even Nuñez has been forced to do it as part of a performance contract...and he is a guy that actually enjoys teaching! But only
I can imagine what Segovia was saying too:
"Dees vone call costin me hunreds of pesetas! An now you say you wont play! I waste dees much on phone call and you could have reeten me a letter!"
Yeah no wonder Andres was pissed, flippen phone bill to call Australia.
RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to estebanana)
I remember calling to Germany from the US at about $2,5 or $5 -not sure which currency I recall- per minute (with my girl friend on the other end crazy from longing / long talks) and that was # from USA where tarifs are always lower # in the early eighties, let alone the times of decades before, when Williams was called # shorter distance
International phone calls used to be luxury as you said. And I fancy Segovia as not exactly dismissing cash, indeed.
There´s never been proof about thelike, but I think an endorsement for Ramirez may have well helped him overcome relatively humble fees of that time, and in retrospect made him conceal other makes that had served him well.
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
a lot of it is yes, but something like this, for me, is up there with Bach and Mozart stuff:
Bach and Mozart?! Good God, man! You mean those old Dead White European Male Warhorses who have suppressed the creation of modern, serious (classical) music for so long? I think I shall faint...quick, the smelling salts!
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to estebanana)
Heard Yamashita play Bach's cello suites 4-6 yesterday. Never got bored for 1 second, couldn't shake a huge smile off my face. Powerful musical experience, energy level to rival a flamenco concert, and display of virtuosity beyond my reach. This stuff, the way he played it, makes La Barrosa look easy.
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Grisha)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Grisha
Heard Yamashita play Bach's cello suites 4-6 yesterday. Never got bored for 1 second, couldn't shake a huge smile off my face. Powerful musical experience, energy level to rival a flamenco concert, and display of virtuosity beyond my reach. This stuff, the way he played it, makes La Barrosa look easy.
Hmm...I want to like it...I checked this out real quick...what the heck? Sounds like a struggle to me. Those are triplets, hello? Where is the rhythmic feel???? all beauty there is gone, only the notes are left with implied harmony. I need more sorry.
Now this might seem ridiculous on the surface but it makes me sit back and relax and enjoy with a big smile, but that's just me: http://youtu.be/-u7k8xpeiDk
RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to estebanana)
You have to hear more before you form an opinion, Ricardo. Although, if this is not your cup of tea, there is little I can do to make you like it. But thanks for checking that out anyway.
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Grisha)
I grew up hearing the Bach 'cello suites played by Casals. He employed a lot of rhythmic flexibility, in a very Romantic style of performance.
Later performers were less flexible rhythmically, but kept much of the 'singing' dynamics of Casals.
For me Yamashita is about as far along the Romantic spectrum as I would like to go, but I still like his performance. When he played the 2nd Violin Partita here the other night, I didn't go along with the breakneck speed of the next to last movement, but I loved the Chaconne, Romantic as it was.
Though Yamashita is far from being at full power on the Youtube clip, you can still see and hear the unusual firmness of his touch, and how he can make the Ramitez speak un-amplified in a big room.
RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to estebanana)
Yamashita is A MOUNTAIN!
Guitarists of course want to play those works and audiences want to hear them on guitar, there's nothing wrong with that. I seldom ( read never) listen to these on guitar and if I saw them on a guitarists program I would not be looking forward to them as the best pieces.
The cello Suites need a bow and a cello to really work. These pieces were conceptualized by Bach to be bowed. Another problem is the guitar is tuned in forth's and the cello is tuned in fifths. Bach wrote these pieces so they lay on the violin and cello fingerboard so the double and triple stops would activate sonorities particular to these instruments. When a violinist plays a double stop in the high register and then bows a broken chord over the two lower strings it utilizes the open strings to support the higher notes. When the pieces are transcribed to the guitar the beauty of that musical logic is lost, you no longer have the natural tonic key overtone support of the chords and the tonic key support of the open two lower strings on the violin and cello. The difference between the way chords are voiced on instruments tuned in fifths and forths is significant to this issue of transcribing. Bach choose the chord voicing as part of the fabric of the work, if the voicing is changed to an instrument tuned in forths they loose a lot of blood.
I've done the comparative listening more than a few times. Two different guitar players sided by side with two violinists covering the same suite partita or sonata. The faster movements tend to work better on guitar, but the in the Sarabands and slower tempi movements of the violin work there is a big drop off in quality because the guitar just can't sustain the notes properly. It physically cannot do it.
Where voices should layer over each the cellist moves the bow to play two strings at once and the voices appear out of thin air. The guitar player by contrast brings those notes into the air by attack- plucking and then decay at a known speed. With guitar it's attack- decay, attack -decay, attack-decay and as soon you memorize the decay time of the guitar ( which takes your brain about 10 seconds), it starts to sound mechanical. You can foretell the decay time of each note. With the bow there is attack, sustain, silent beginning etc. It's much more nuanced set of string activators.
You have to do the side by side listening and have the violin or cello score in your hand to see what is happening Especially in slow movements where guitarist will attack the string, the string will decay and there will be pause, the violinist is still sustaining the note. The trade off is in the fast movements like the Prestos in the sonatas, the guitarist has a better task, not having to make 'work arounds' for fast decay of notes.
As far as the Chaccone, I think Bream (of all the 'well known' players) was the only one who played it well. Despite all the problems with transcribing these pieces to guitar Bream used his great range in tone to give meaning to this piece. if I want to listen to Bach on violin, I generally go with Nathan Milstein, Schlomo Mintz, Ken Goldsmith, Mr. 'H' or turn to the gut string crew who play on period instruments. For the Suites, the go to's are Pierre Fournier, Slava, Anner Blysma, Matt Haimowitz. And Casals first recordings are still significant, today.
Here's the Dutch Cellist Pieter Wispelwey, his playing very different from Casals, for contrast. Notice how the bow swells the note up and down. And the still life painting, by coincidence, in the video is by Sanchez Cotan a painter I like a lot.
RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Now this might seem ridiculous on the surface but it makes me sit back and relax and enjoy with a big smile, but that's just me: http://youtu.be/-u7k8xpeiDk
____________
This is FAR better that a classical player playing the suites. Sustain.
Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA
RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to ToddK)
quote:
ORIGINAL: ToddK
I can't stand any of the players in this thread thus far, no offense.
For me, this is the best version of Albeniz's Sevilla that i've ever heard.
Adam has such great technique, I am noticing in this video how very still his right hand is. One of the few that can play classical and flamenco well and willing to teach it to others.
_____________________________
Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
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