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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 2:00:45
 
estebanana

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Guest

The Japanese guitarist Koari Muraji plays some of her Spanish repertoire on a Conde' Media Luna. Tap plate and all. She probably play flamenco too, but not in concerts. I think her sound is really good. She out rasgueados most clasiscal players. Another fine classical player who can play a mean rageo when he needs to is Marc Tiecholtz.

I like her playing better a bit more than that guys, and she's is better looking too. Classical players can dig in too. By comparison Muraji has more energy and verve.




It also challenges the guys who complain about long scales and stretches. She has small hands.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 2:18:28
 
estebanana

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Guest

Isbin's playing never really fully grabbed me, but she has power in reserve. She kicks ass.

She's got power when she unleashes it, nothing wimpy. What she needs is a flamenco guitar for this piece.



Ida Pesti played it faster than the boys. She sounds like an old flamenco from the 1930's. She sounds amazing.



Why did Segovia get all the attention? Ida Presti, she slays that fat old man. In most ways she is a superior player to Segovia. Segovia really has tone color in spades,but Presti made as many transcriptions of pieces as he did and her playing is highly technically advanced, and sounds more flamenco when she turned it on.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 2:27:43
 
estebanana

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Guest

There's always Dusan Bogdanovich to create insane technical problems and powerful playing:



The Ginastera sonata is pretty simple too:



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 2:38:41

ToddK

 

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Guest

I can't stand any of the players in this thread thus far, no offense.


For me, this is the best version of Albeniz's Sevilla that i've ever heard.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 2:45:19
 
estebanana

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Guest

Well there's always that. That is kick ass. But Del Monte' so much better than the first guy it's not even funny. Not the same class of player at all.

But every player in the thread kicks ass over the first guy.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 2:52:46
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 3:23:17
 
estebanana

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Guest

quote:

I had not seen the Presti and Muraji videos. Presti is quite fast indeed. What you don't seem to be noticing, though, is that both of these gals have enormous problems maintaining a consistent tempo, which is not surprising given the speed at which they are playing. They are not particularly good as musicians, although they may be stellar performers. Dynamics is lacking completely, so is emphasis.


It's called rubato and tempo change. In the case of Ida Presti that recording is really old, her dynamic range does not sound out of order when compared to other flamenco and classical recordings of the same era. To hear her in person was probably quite another experience.

Muraji is a fine player and she's got strength. Adam del Monte is a stellar guitarist an composer living in LA, he's world class.

And then you go back to classical guitarist Ana Vedovic to make your point. Are you ready to eat your hat?

Jason Mc Guire was in Australia a few years ago playing in a festival and Ana Vedovic was there as well. I asked him how she played, I've never seen her in person. He said she was really good and that she was in some special place of accomplishment. So a really high level flamenco guitarist gives kudos to a rally fine classical guitarist.

The fight between who's better flamenco or classical is a non starter today because so many great players around today have worked in both areas and have mutual respect. In times past flamenco guitar players were given short credit for accomplishments and most of that talk came from aficionados. I have not heard any really fine, tough, muscular playing classical guitar players today disparage flamenco players or put them down. There are wimpy classical players, but there are just as many flamenco players with other problems, sure, but at the top level I don't hear guitar players fighting over which genre produces the best interpretation.

Some music calls for the classical touch and some calls for a flamenco touch, they are two sides of an instrument and two ways of playing. I've heard a lot of mutual respect exchanged between the good classical and good flamenco players. And a lot of good classical players who like flamenco guitars.

Most of the best guitar players could have gone either direction to classical or flamenco, to me they made decisions based on personal temperament and which music suits them. And on the opposite side of the coin, I've heard a flamenco guitarist or two completely murder and kill a classical piece by trying to over power it.

I think it's always going to be a two way street.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 9:42:16
 
Cloth Ears

 

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Guest

quote:

who's better flamenco or classical is a non starter today


I wander what Segovia, who was not a fan of flamenco guitar, would think of the latter day virtuosos since PdL?

----
I prefer Bream's Sevilla: less speed, more feeling to that excellent recording by AdM.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 11:42:50
 
tri7/5

 

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Guest

I prefer Paco's Conde tone on Concierto de Aranjuez more than any other guitar I have heard on that piece. The fast dry tone really helps the overall spanish feel and faster scale runs as that piece has a lot of layers and needs separation.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 12:55:52
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 13:29:47
 
estebanana

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Guest

quote:

Estebanana: Yeah, sure. Find a pretty-sounding term as an excuse. Then why does your "rubato tempo change" slow down exactly when the piece gets more difficult and faster when it gets easy?! You don't seem to have even basic musical training. The hard thing about the Asturias is to play it consistently, NOT to play it fast. Everyone can play fast when it's easy. This also answers why everyone knows Segovia and noone's ever heard of Presti. The former is a musician with expression and feeling, the latter is a mechanical chainsaw. Ditto!


Thanks, I appreciate the character assassination. You put the 'Ass' in assassination.

The point here is that today there are so many good players on both sides of the music that to make your cavalier comparison is not helpful to anyone.

The best players in classical and flamenco have respect for each other and don't need to get into semantic debates about which technique is stronger. The point ons some music requires a classical approach and some music requires a more flamenco approach.

Flamenco technique is not a universally better thing for all guitar music.

And the Ida Presti Segovia comparison, that is hyperbole. Making an over statement to create a point. The cue that is was hyperbole is that I said Segovia had tone color in spades. Which means I like him and his tone was fantastic.

I'll repeat what I heard the guitarist George Benson recently say because it made so much common sense and felt so absolutely correct. He said what I look for in a guitar player no matter what genre, is if the person behind the guitar uses the instrument to communicate to me.

For me the question do they communicate has now overshadowed and become more important than which genre or technique they use to play. It's a game to say this is better than that. The bigger question is do they communicate?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 14:06:25
 
estebanana

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Guest

Her another good Ida Presti recording.

Bear in mind these were gut strings, and she was fourteen years old when this was recorded in 1938. This is from a scratchy 78 rpm recording.

I daresay when she was 14 she was giving Segovia a run for his money. Presti 's sound is totally different from Segovia's. I like both for different reasons.

And iagree I like Paco's Aranuez more than Breams. But again the intention is the key. Most classical players play cantilena passages and flamencos play them flamenco. I'm really glad we live were we can hear both cantilena players who make the guitar to sing like a tenor, and flamencos who coax a beautiful husky voice from the guitar.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 15:55:23
 
Paul Magnussen

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Guest

quote:

This also answers why everyone knows Segovia and noone's ever heard of Presti.


Maybe not where you come from. When she married Alexandre Lagoya, she gave up her solo career for the duo; but neither RCA nor Philips seemed to bother about distributing their records outside France, which is why Lagoya later (he told me) left Philips for CBS.

But I alone of those in this discussion, it seems, have actually seen Ida Presti live. It was one of the great musical experiences of my life.

I saw Segovia many times, as well; but, good though those concerts were, they didn’t leave me as amazed as Presti/Lagoya did.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 16:50:02
 
edguerin

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Guest

Listen to PdL's De Falla rendition

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 17:00:46
 
rombsix

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to edguerin

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpEOXxefwHkk5GLv9YnTx-A/videos

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 17:07:26
 
estebanana

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

Maybe not where you come from. When she married Alexandre Lagoya, she gave up her solo career for the duo; but neither RCA nor Philips seemed to bother about distributing their records outside France, which is why Lagoya later (he told me) left Philips for CBS.

But I alone of those in this discussion, it seems, have actually seen Ida Presti live. It was one of the great musical experiences of my life.

I saw Segovia many times, as well; but, good though those concerts were, they didn’t leave me as amazed as Presti/Lagoya did.


I saw Segovia Los Angeles, but knowing what I know now I'd rather have seen Presti. If I had to choose. She died at age 42 such a tragedy much like Jackie Du Pre's career ending in full bloom.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 17:10:29
 
estebanana

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Guest

I would loved to have bathed my ears and senses in this in person, but the recording is so live and vibrant. It's like a great pianist who plays with dignity, but sans that narsty old piano.

It's just pure beauty. Left to us by a visitor to this planet.




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 17:23:04
 
Mark2

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to estebanana

Communicating......big time. Amazing. Thanks for posting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I would loved to have bathed my ears and senses in this in person, but the recording is so live and vibrant. It's like a great pianist who plays with dignity, but sans that narsty old piano.

It's just pure beauty. Left to us by a visitor to this planet.



  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 17:35:07
 
DavRom

 

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Guest

Adam Del Monte - One of the few guitarists that have mastered both classical and flamenco...y con mucho aire

Pepe Habichuela student
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 18:02:33
 
Paul Magnussen

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to estebanana

Yes, Clair de lune is so beautiful, IMHO the best version on guitar.

But if you really want to hear an astonishing performance, listen to this:



Jack Duarte told me he’d heard harpsichordists imitate this interpretation.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 18:18:04
 
Richard Jernigan

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Guest

When I was a kid trumpeter, I wasn't the square peg in the round hole. I was the octagonal peg presented with a square hole and a round hole, neither of which fitted. My jazz friends put down my symphony friends, and my symphony friends put down my jazz friends.

When I got interested in guitar, it was the same thing between classical and flamenco. Maybe even a little more so.

Once in a while I go to a trumpet forum. Now there seems to be a little more mutual respect.

These days the Austin Classical Guitar Society puts on concerts by Tomatito and Niño de Pura, as well as Pepe Romero (who has played both classical and flamenco all his life), Kazuhito Yamashita, who could blow any flamenco player whatsoever out of the tub on both speed and volume. Yes, I mean Paco too. When was the last time you heard Paco fill a 1200-seat auditorium playing un-amplified? I once heard Sabicas do it in a 900-seat room. I heard Yamashita do it last Saturday night, in a 1200-seat auditorium.

But so what? Does that make Yamashita a bettter musician than Paco? No. They are different. You like one better than the other? That's your prerogative.

I like classical and flamenco guitar. I like "classical" music and jazz. I like Balinese gamelan and Jamaican steel band. I like blues and Afro-Cuban. In every case I have friends who like one, but not the other. It's okay with me. I don't argue about it.

Could I have wider opportunities than they do to enjoy music?

RNJ

By the way, I really like Paco's version of the Aranjuez.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 22:04:11
 
estebanana

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

Yes, Clair de lune is so beautiful, IMHO the best version on guitar.

But if you really want to hear an astonishing performance, listen to this:



Jack Duarte told me he’d heard harpsichordists imitate this interpretation.

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I saved that to an external drive and put it in 'Music collections' to keep.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2015 22:52:02
 
Paul Magnussen

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I saved that to an external drive and put it in 'Music collections' to keep.


The original 3-CD Philips set is now deleted; but should you care to put your money down, it’s completely subsumed by the 6-CD Art of Alexandre Lagoya.

http://www.amazon.com/LArt-Alexandre-Lagoya-avec-Presti/dp/B0002IRXZ0/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1444270805&sr=1-3&keywords=Lagoya

Well worth the money, IMHO.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2015 2:21:03
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2015 4:39:55
 
estebanana

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Guest

The only sewing machine around here is the one powered by a hamster wheel in your head.

Lily Afshar is more my type. Feisty Persian women and tadik potatoes, fensenjone. It sad Iran is run by a religious mafia or I would live there too.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2015 5:07:34
 
estebanana

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

The original 3-CD Philips set is now deleted; but should you care to put your money down, it’s completely subsumed by the 6-CD Art of Alexandre Lagoya.

http://www.amazon.com/LArt-Alexandre-Lagoya-avec-Presti/dp/B0002IRXZ0/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1444270805&sr=1-3&keywords=Lagoya

Well worth the money, IMHO.



Next time I sell one I'll buy this. In the mean time I'll sample on youtube an rip it into my external. I think buying the music is important and if I were wealthy as an Arab king I would throw money on musicians instead of strippers. Well, 95% of the time.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2015 5:13:09
 
Cloth Ears

 

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

as well as Pepe Romero


I think his "Concierto de Aranjuez" is far better than either Bream or PdL (awful rendition IMO, no matter what the composer had to say on the matter).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2015 9:25:43
 
DavRom

 

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

Kazuhito Yamashita, who could blow any flamenco player whatsoever out of the tub on both speed and volume. Yes, I mean Paco too. When was the last time you heard Paco fill a 1200-seat auditorium playing un-amplified? I once heard Sabicas do it in a 900-seat room. I heard Yamashita do it last Saturday night, in a 1200-seat auditorium.


was Yamashita playing solo or with a band?

no acoustic guitar and player is gonna cut through a band without an amp

and it's hard for me to imagine Paco and his band were ever booked to do anything less than 2000
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2015 10:19:36
 
Ruphus

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RE: What happens when a flamenco gui... (in reply to Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cloth Ears

quote:

as well as Pepe Romero


I think his "Concierto de Aranjuez" is far better than either Bream or PdL (awful rendition IMO, no matter what the composer had to say on the matter).



Bingo!

I know that he has had flamencos around his living quarter, but I doubt him having played music of that genre regularly.
At least his flamenco venyl that I have is nothing to write home about.

However, his touch with classical music is really good, and his CdA is the best version that I have heard. Totally agreed. - Also on Paco´s failed trial.
_

Stephen,

I am currently editing a batch of photographies, containing shots of one truly beautiful and in the same time extremely sympathetical Persian girl. Too bad that chicks of that realm are very picky about their pictures (always afraid that shots could be misused to harm their pride) otherwise I´d show pics to you for eye candy.

However, that night she was flirting with a lackluster nerd, obviously arranged by her family, as the guy´s parents must be owning some shops or thelike / be well-off. Which is the typical not so romantic side of the descent.
No refuge for true love and poor poets like us.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2015 10:25:03
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