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Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Paco - our new dog - (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

He faces 3 - 12 month of jail.


Way too little. Indicating how fellow creatures are still being defined as things.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson


I dont believe in jail. 10 hours of social work a week for a couple of years in a place where people know who he is and what he did would work 10 times better.


Totally agreed.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2016 9:05:24
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1799
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: Paco - our new dog - (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

He faces 3 - 12 month of jail.


Way too little. Indicating how fellow creatures are still being defined as things.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson


I dont believe in jail. 10 hours of social work a week for a couple of years in a place where people know who he is and what he did would work 10 times better.


Totally agreed.

Ruphus

Wow, Ruphus, now was that one hell of a contradiction or what!! Or you'd opt for over 12 months jail and then do 10 hrs of social work a day?

I'm with Anders on the social work alternative. The jail system is failing in many ways - events in Paris last year were proof of that.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2016 1:50:34
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Paco - our new dog - (in reply to Ruphus

To the original poster:

Sorry Peter. Next time you post photos of Paco, better start a new thread. Its partly my fault, but this is turning into something very different.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2016 8:26:43
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1616
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Paco - our new dog - (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Ha Anders, both of us are long enough here around to know how things works....
Learned a lot about people and social behaviour on this foro flamenco. Also learned a lot about myself here.
So the topic goes his own way...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2016 8:45:10
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Paco - our new dog - (in reply to Dudnote

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dudnote


Wow, Ruphus, now was that one hell of a contradiction or what!! Or you'd opt for over 12 months jail and then do 10 hrs of social work a day?


It was relating to the sizing of penalty within given routines, not meaning to promote jail.
-

It would surprise me if Peter was to mind the connections made.
Just as I doubt him to welcome the fact of other guests in the café wearing those jackets from China with fur collars made of dog skin, which I see now in sheer masses within street views in Europe.

Yesterday, in a documentary on a breeding and return to the wild station for extinct raptors in France even the vet caring there was wearing such a cheap evidence of torture and skinning alive.

Noone who cherishes and loves his dog will want to ignore the very opposite treatment done to this dreadfully exposed species.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2016 9:39:14
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Paco - our new dog - (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

Noone who cherishes and loves his dog will want to ignore the very opposite treatment done to this dreadfully exposed species.


I believe that in general Dogs are the animals being treated the best of all. have you ever visited a Danish pig farm. Or a Chicken farm. I have.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2016 15:45:24
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12998
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco - our new dog - (in reply to gerundino63

quote:

ORIGINAL: gerundino63

What a nice dog! Old dogs mostly lay in front of the fireplace, but with a coat like this....


He hates anything warm. Especially this global warming mess!



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2016 17:22:39
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Paco - our new dog - (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

He hates anything warm

Nice photo. I like your dog. He has style.
As a teenager I had a Newfoundland dog. He was the same. Winter better than summer. (And that was in Denmark)
I Sevilla I have seen a very big Newfoundland dog a couple of times. (the same one) It lives there the poor thing.
Its a prime example of people buying a dog for the looks and not for what will work for the dog and/or them.
Knowing the dog breed and how much they suffer when its just half the temperature that it is in Sevilla in summer, I consider it to be a crime to have a dog breed like that there. It has an enormously thick 2 layer black coat of hair. The hair can be cut of, but this one I´ve only seen with long hair.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2016 8:03:51
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Paco - our new dog - (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

Noone who cherishes and loves his dog will want to ignore the very opposite treatment done to this dreadfully exposed species.


I believe that in general Dogs are the animals being treated the best of all. have you ever visited a Danish pig farm. Or a Chicken farm. I have.


You are right in the overall perspective.
I was taking into consideration that with dogs the average person has more opportunity to realize how this creature is focussed on humans and how it has actively served menkind as hunting mate and guard of home and family.

In regard of arctic races it is remarkable where people drag huskies to, apparently for their handsome shape.

Like this beautiful and lovely tempered malamute which a tourist had lost (so I was told. Might as well have been stolen from him) in Costa Rica.


And over here in Middle East husykies are so sought after that thieves (aware of the harmless being of this breed) specialize on breaking into yards and stealing them.

Again, obviously it´s just because of their optical shape, with noone giving a dime about what such a race actually needs.

The animals must be extremely suffering under summer temperatures well over 40° C. Let alone in a region where hardly anyone cares enough to build them any kennels, not to think of insulated ones.

Mostly the are kept on a chain (often times of less than 2 m length); if lucky enough with a spot of shade somewhere.

Ruphus

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2016 10:01:01
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3131
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Paco - our new dog - (in reply to Ruphus

We lived in Alaska for two years. I was 11 to 13 years old. This was long before Malamutes and Siberians were fashionable pets. In those days they were working dogs. But they presented a problem if not confined and worked.

My good friend Ivan was born and raised in Alaska. On winter weekends and in the summer we hiked over the countryside surrounding Anchorage. In those days we could start walking from my house after breakfast, and by lunchtime we could be at a place where there was no sign a human had been there before us.

During my first winter there we were hiking in a remote place, and paused to rest sitting on a fallen log with a view across a frozen creek. A pack, I couldn't tell whether they were dogs or wolves, ran along the opposite bank, paused behind fallen timber, then cautiously raised up above it to observe us.

I was worried. It was my first encounter with wild canines, and we were armed only with.22 caliber pistols. Ivan was alert, and a bit tense, until he had a good look at the animals. Then he relaxed and said, "It's okay. They're wolves."

"What do you mean, 'It's okay.' All we've got are these little popguns to defend ourselves."

"We don't need to defend ourselves. Wolves are afraid of people. If they were dogs, we might be in trouble. Dogs aren't afraid."

It was against the law for people to allow their dogs to run free. Both winters roving packs of dogs killed small children in the nearby countryside. In each case their owners were known and prosecuted.

But that was a long time ago. I suppose that Huskies bred for the pet trade might be more docile than the working dogs in Alaska sixty-odd years ago.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2016 21:47:24
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1616
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Paco - our new dog - (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Nice story Richard,

Very plausible differents about wolf- and dog packs.
I red in a book that wolfs are much smarter than dogs....it is smart to be afraid of humans I think....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2016 22:25:07
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Paco - our new dog - (in reply to Ruphus

Yes, and it stresses the nonesense of imposing a man-eater image on this species after the publicity of Grimm´s fairytales, which led to a rigorous hunt and decimation of wolves world-wiide.

It is unquestionable that a pack of dogs presents another degree of danger than a pack of wolves.

There is however one item unclear to me regarding location and point in time.
Huskies are reknown for having been selected in a way that left them strictly harmless to men (kind of like dollcats), no matter how they be treated. It is being said that these breeds will under no circumstance attack humans. (Which again is why they can´t be expected to function as guards / as they welcome strangers friendly.)

From there I assume that a potentially dangerous pack up there in the north would need to have non-sledge dog genetics. (Which today should be quite thinkable, with all the different breeds like e.g. ovtsharkas that must have spread further up north.)

Ruphus


PS:

My brother had a pair of ovtsharkas in his datsha. The most intimating dogs I have ever seen.
-

The largest and most beautiful malamute I ever saw belonged to an Amerian pop star in California (as we were talking of climate conditions).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 23 2016 12:12:13
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Paco - our new dog - (in reply to Ruphus

Some occurings from ogre sphere I should mention:

After mentioned video about the dumped puppies, the very next day another video was aired taken by someone who went to same spot to collect the puppies.
He found only two of them remained and alive (and scared to death / shoving their little heads into a cloth contained in the rescuer´s trunk, just to get out of sight), but somone cared.

The following day a video was shown with someone torturing a stray dog. Holding it at its ears, beating it with a shovel and with a stick, and with 5 or 6 other persons around laughing about all that.

The video triggered a turmpoil among natives and expats. They made out his ID by his number plate and moved all levers possible.

They guy was arrested the very next day and instantly sued. A ridiculous fine of an equivalent of 300 bucks and possibly one or two months of jail. A crowd of people also demonstrated before the court building, holding tags and placards etc. Also an application was entered into parliament asking for a law of pursuing animal torturing.
All this within two days!

The prospected fine being too low. However, this action presents a spectacular novum in a country that does not even have any legal animal welfare act!

I predict a rejection of the parliamental application, likely to be justified with alleged surrender into western decadence or such.

Yet, what happened these days was an intense rise of modern voice unseen to date. Really something and well worth international attention.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 23 2016 13:24:07
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3131
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Paco - our new dog - (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

It is unquestionable that a pack of dogs presents another degree of danger than a pack of wolves.

There is however one item unclear to me regarding location and point in time.
Huskies are reknown for having been selected in a way that left them strictly harmless to men (kind of like dollcats), no matter how they be treated. It is being said that these breeds will under no circumstance attack humans. (Which again is why they can´t be expected to function as guards / as they welcome strangers friendly.)

From there I assume that a potentially dangerous pack up there in the north would need to have non-sledge dog genetics. (Which today should be quite thinkable, with all the different breeds like e.g. ovtsharkas that must have spread further up north.)

Ruphus



I can't speak to the genetics of sled dogs in Alaska in the late 1940s-early 1950s, nor do I choose to speculate. Among my friends, family and associates it was generally considered wise to be cautious around them, even when confined, but especially when they were allowed to run free. I learned this from people born and raised in Alaska. Instances of attacks upon humans were regularly reported with occasional fatalities. In the immediate vicinity of Anchorage dogs killed more people than bears did. There were no brown bears around Anchorage at that time, but black bears were quite plentiful.

Unlike brown bears which are dangerously unpredictable, and may attack people with little apparent provocation, black bears are generally shy and retiring. But accidentally coming between a black bear and her cub could be a fatal mistake. One quickly learned to be cautious around them.

In February in Anchorage there was the annual Fur Rendezvous. This was named after the old custom of the trappers coming into town in mid-winter to sell a few furs and re-stock their store of provisions. One feature of the Fur Rendezvous were dogsled races that began on the street downtown, went out into the countryside and finished downtown again.

Often there were a dozen or more teams of dogs hitched to their sleds, tied up to posts along 4th Avenue waiting to start a race. Frequently a team would work its way loose and attack a nearby team. The owners would appear and wade into the fray, grabbing dogs by their harnesses and hauling them away from one another. The dogs attacked the opposing owners without hesitation, indeed with considerable enthusiasm. The owners wore heavy leather protective clothing, and were seldom seriously injured.

Perhaps Huskies for the pet trade have been bred for docility in the last sixty-odd years? Twenty generations would be plenty of time to instill this trait. Over the same period the appearance of the winning teams in the Iditarod race has changed markedly. Today's winning dogs are much lighter and more slender than the ones years ago. I haven't seen any of these racing dogs among the pets.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 23 2016 22:06:17
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Paco - our new dog - (in reply to Ruphus

Thanks, Richard,

Another lesson learned.

I had it from diverse sources that Huskies had been traditionally selected in breeding, so that they would never attack humans.

But while there must be something to it regarding certain lines, as I just learned it mustn´t apply to all sledge dogs.

One can even find headlines like this:
Huskies among most dangerous dogs, study shows
quote:

“Huskies are working, pack animals and are not genetically attack dogs. They can be very good and very placid, but only if they are reared properly.”


Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2016 9:23:39
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3131
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Paco - our new dog - (in reply to Ruphus

In the USA Doberman Pinschers have a reputation for violence against humans. Perhaps this is due to their often being trained and employed as guard dogs or police dogs. But they can be quite gentle and trustworthy if raised properly. One of my best friends and his wife had a pair of Dobermans. Their fair sized back yard was surrounded by a six foot (two meter) board fence.

A little dog that ran free in the neighborhood liked to annoy the Dobermans by standing outside the fence and barking.

One Saturday afternoon a group of us were playing cards at my friends' house when the doorbell rang. It was the boy who delivered the newspaper, there to collect his fee. The annoying little dog had followed him up the sidewalk halfway to the door. The Dobermans bolted through the door and took after the little dog in attack mode.

Being a summer Saturday afternoon many neighbors were outdoors and looked on in horror as they expected the little dog to be ripped to shreds by the vicious Dobermans. The Dobermans easily caught up to the little dog, which was running for its life as the Dobermans loped along at a steady pace.

When the big dogs caught up, instead of tearing the little dog to bloody rags, one of them just reached over with its nose and nudged him off balance. He tumbled and skidded along the street, shrieking in terror. The big dogs paused until the little one regained his feet and start running again, as fast as he could. The big dogs caught up and tipped him over again. They repeated this a couple more times, taking turns, then turned around and trotted back home.

The little dog never came back to bark outside the fence.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2016 5:40:58
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Paco - our new dog - (in reply to Ruphus

Once, when my brother was abroad himself a burglar jumped over the wall of his datsha.
According to the housekeepers the ovcharkas fixed him at the wall without attacking. They would only threaten him at the slightest move. That way they kept him in place for hours until the housekeepers showed up and surrendered the guy to the police.

In German we have a word that is "instinktsicher". I think it could be translated with "intact instincts". Dogs with intact instincts won´t be irritated that soon through unexpected / unfamiliar occurence, allowing tolerance / chance for things to clear up.

From what I learned from cynology / educational reads and participation in a forum for owners of herding and guarding dogs (mainly Kangal) the very most of traditional breeds (and stray / village dogs anyway) used to be of intact instincts.

For originally breeders were selecting after talent for individual tasks and character in question.

Only with the business factor of the past decades breeding lines have become prone to neurotical specimens. Due to profits and optical criteria males are being separated from the litters (as they would check and eliminate individuals with lacking response) and aspects of character being dismissed (as well as genetical defects and deseases).

On the contrary, it´s being said of respected breeders who keep relevant factors in check, despite of the considerable price that they charge per sold dog, breeding hardly pays off financially in view of all the selection and vet bills with a conscientous policy.

Ovcharkas on the other hand are an example of messed up breeding line away from profiteering causes. When the USSR army adopted this breed as means for military use they largely focussed on enlarging body size, ignoring other charcteristics. So that today many ovcharcas are of no intact instinct and can be unpredictable.

An example to the contrary must be the Nagazi (a Georgian breed).

An extremely protective and independent character with yet very intact instincts within its still original breed.

Seems one couldn´t be better served when living in the outback somewhere, needing a capable yet reasonable guard.


Of dobermanns people seem extremely fond all over the world. I get to hear all passionate stories about them, even here in ogres land.
For some reason it appears as if their genetics were to be extremely stable / overcoming todays vastly detouched breeding methods still with robust character.

Yet, optimal chances for intact instincts ought to be with stray dogs. At least with those of several generations if not more.

Following my layman estimation strays over an extended period of time tend to develop to monochrome reddish appearance (similar to how the dingo did). So, if that be correct, with adopting such a stray chances of a very healthy dog, both in respect of immunity / physical health as well as intact instinct, should be specially good.

Ruphus

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2016 13:14:49
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