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RE: What is flamenco today?   You are logged in as Guest
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Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Anders, maybe just step aside and let the guys talk flamenco _since that is what is happening_?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2015 14:51:09
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

yes, I agree.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2015 15:19:54
 
Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Blues was a side step...Jernigan appologized no need for a lock down! However "weird chords in flamenco" is RIGHT on topic IMO.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2015 16:06:45
 
mark indigo

 

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Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I think it does not really matter as John said about splitting hair over who did what first. There must have been players messing around with alternate keys, but maybe they did or did now know about each there depending on where they lived.


just to clarify the point (and I agree it doesn't really matter who or when), I brought up the David Serva story in relation to what Mark 2 posted on first page of thread:
quote:

I do think it's possible for a guitarist not born in Spain to come up with something that could have an influence on Spanish players, but I think he may have to establish himself within the flamenco community or culture in Spain for his innovations to be felt in the Spanish flamenco community.


seemed on topic to me...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2015 19:39:56
 
DavRom

 

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

to rephrase the original question of this thread...

is flamenco today defined more by guitar or cante? regardless of which has historically defined the genre

which one will carry flamenco into the future and determine its evolution?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2015 23:43:54
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3470
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to DavRom

quote:

to rephrase the original question of this thread...is flamenco today defined more by guitar or cante? regardless of which has historically defined the genre. which one will carry flamenco into the future and determine its evolution?


To those who really understand and appreciate flamenco, I don't think it is defined more by one than the other today. I think most understand that cante is the core and the guitar equally worthy as accompaniment. Regarding the future, who can say? I think that the guitar will always have a wider audience than cante for reasons that have been discussed many times on this forum. For many, cante is too obscure, exotic, and even for Spanish speakers sometimes nearly unintelligible; while the guitar can be appreciated by nearly everyone. At any rate, that's my take on it.

Bill

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With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2015 0:12:06
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

is flamenco today defined more by guitar or cante? regardless of which has historically defined the genre

which one will carry flamenco into the future and determine its evolution?

If it is not cante than it will cease to be flamenco. You can have flamenco without guitar and dance, you can't have flamenco without cante.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2015 1:26:25
 
estebanana

Posts: 9538
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RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to DavRom

quote:

to rephrase the original question of this thread...

is flamenco today defined more by guitar or cante? regardless of which has historically defined the genre

which one will carry flamenco into the future and determine its evolution?


In the mind of the general non flamenco savvy public, dance is how they understand.

Flamenco is cante', period.

Guitar playing is the thing that glues cante' and dacnce together and gets to shine on its own once that work is done.

The future? Who can tell.
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2015 1:29:51
 
Miguel de Maria

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From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Cante is flamenco for people who grew up in that culture or have acquired that taste. Dance is it for people who like fluffy dresses and expressive faces and acrobatic stomping. Guitar is the best thing about flamenco for most people who like music and for most guitarists.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2015 3:45:45
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3470
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to BarkellWH

I think it is a little too much to say that flamenco is cante, period. And that without cante there is no flamenco. I understand what is meant by it, that cante is the origin, the core, and the soul of flamenco. I agree with that. But to listen to a guitarist playing a beautiful solea' in compas with wonderful falsetas, rasqueados, and tremolo is to listen to flamenco every bit as much as listening to Santiago Donday or La Nina de los Peines. It is no less flamenco for lacking a cantaor, in my opinion.

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2015 4:33:49
 
chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Leñador

quote:

you can't have flamenco without cante.

so what are you saying? sabicas, riqueny, nunez, canizares, etc - all the instrumental stuff they put out - it's NOT flamenco? sabicas has an album called 'flamenco puro'. flamenco freaking puro! so we were lied to this whole time?

flamenco sucio...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2015 4:57:04
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to DavRom

quote:

to rephrase the original question of this thread...

is flamenco today defined more by guitar or cante? regardless of which has historically defined the genre

which one will carry flamenco into the future and determine its evolution?


It depends on how you look and focus you have.
But as other have said, dont exclude baile. It is very important to most. I cant seperate any of the 3. They go together.
Even here in Andalucia, many persons dislike flamenco and the huge majority of people is not interested at all in it. Cante is what they dislike the most.
On the other hand, amongst the people that like flamenco, cante is what they respect the most. Its the center of the 3.

Cante is different wheater its solo cante con acompañamiento (palante) or its with dance (patras). Very seldom you see top level singers doing patras. there you have those specialized in that.
The same for groups where the guitar is the most important, then you see patras singers. and sometimes a dancer doing a few thignies in the corner but without the presence they have in a dance performance.
You also have guitarists specialized in acompañamiento of cante or dance. And some of them are IMHO amongst the best and most important. Even when it comes to Paco, I prefer the way he played with Camaron than the way he played solo.

When flamenco music is made into pop music, there´s a tendency to focus more on guitar than on cante and baile. Guitar is easyer to digest.

When Spain is sold to tourists (and its always on sale), flamenco is used a lot, but there it is mainly dance that is in focus. Tourists want dance, some rasgueados, a bit of Ay and Óle..... So thats what they get. Spaniards are very intelligent when it comes to tourism. They dont give tourist authentical stuff but what the tourists like. Authentical Spain is scary and uncivilized and not only when it comes to flamenco.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2015 7:30:01
 
Brendan

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RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

I recently had a conversation with a professional dancer, who told me that in his opinion, guitar and dance are heading in different directions. He thinks that the guitarists are somehow more faithful to flamenco's forms, for all their syncopation and reharmonisation, while the top dancers want to produce some sort of high-art modern ballet that gets right away from the tradition. Then he said something about Cuba that I didn't understand.

This was just one guy sitting in a bar throwing out generalisations, but I think I get it. Interesting, he didn't say anything at all about cante.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2015 9:52:38
 
JohnWalshGuitar

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RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

The whole issue of Flamenco is Cante....
I understand that for a lot of people that is true and I understand the historical and cultural arguments for it. I've listened to so much of the argument in Spain over the last few years.

While I was in Algeciras at the Paco festival in July I had a lot of interesting conversations with a lot of different people, singers, guitarists etc.
After one epic long instance, the general consensus was reached that if singers want to maintain their hallowed position, then they should put the same amount of work in as the guitarists and/or dancers.

It is all to easy to say that flamenco is cante but i think cante is cante, guitar is guitar, dance is dance etc and flamenco is more than just one or the other. For instance, where is the innovation in cante these days?
Is it supposed to stay static? We wouldn't have all these different styles of Solea or Fandangos if it wasn't for the innovations and personal styles of the past singers. When are we going to accept a Malagueña de Archangel for example?

Guitarists should have some degree of self-respect and pride in what they do, and not be told from on high that what they do is not flamenco at all and that only cante is important.
This type of thought process goes on all the time in traditional Irish music in my country. The traditionalists argue and argue that Trad is this or Trad is that....Meanwhile the people with real interest in working and practicing make their own music and keep the thing alive. Friends of mine are in a very modern Trad band. They get slated for it 'not being Trad' all the time(mostly by people who cannot play music to save their lives), but they don't care and why should they...

Music is not a static thing, it evolves.. And something like Flamenco most of all; a mongrel music that has influences from all over the place. Of all musics, it should be willing to accept evolution, given it's roots

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2015 10:23:45
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Brendan

quote:


I recently had a conversation with a professional dancer, who told me that in his opinion, guitar and dance are heading in different directions. He thinks that the guitarists are somehow more faithful to flamenco's forms, for all their syncopation and reharmonisation, while the top dancers want to produce some sort of high-art modern ballet that gets right away from the tradition. Then he said something about Cuba that I didn't understand.


You´ll find many flamenco aficionados that will say that flamenco guitar is also going in a direction where the players want to produce high-art modern concert music and that it gets right away from tradition.

To a certain point I agree and that kind of flamenco doesnt interest me at all, but that is just my taste and music is what it is. Its impossible to "freeze" something and call it tradition. Tradition will always evolve in all art forms.
At the same time I find the critisism important because the conection with what has been before is very important in all ethnic style music, being flamenco, bluegrass, Irish trad. or whatever.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2015 11:11:53
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

it's NOT flamenco? sabicas has an album called 'flamenco puro'. flamenco freaking puro! so we were lied to

Obviously I have a great affinity for solo guitar or I wouldn't be hanging around this place so long. If someone asked me is Sabicas flamenco puro album really flamenco puro I might have to say no, one of the best solo guitar flamenco albums but how can it be really puro without cante. I don't know for sure but I have a small feeling he himself didn't name his albums... Anyhow, solo guitar albums remain flamenco when their songs are in within the umbrella of palos. Palos are defined by cante so even solo guitar albums are highly influenced by cante. Though to be honest, lately I have trouble listening to solo guitar albums and maybe some day when I get more crumedgenly I might be like, "no! No cante no flamenco.". Not quite there yet though.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2015 13:44:54
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15318
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to DavRom

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavRom

to rephrase the original question of this thread...

is flamenco today defined more by guitar or cante? regardless of which has historically defined the genre

which one will carry flamenco into the future and determine its evolution?


Flamenco is defined no more or less today than it was in the past. There is cante, there is guitar, there is dance. Since the begining, if it was known at all outside of spain, it would be as others say, Dance troupe superficially, Guitar solo a little more specifically, and cante deeply. It always will be like that.

Now if you are asking what is the STATE flamenco today interms of the 3 elements...well, if you care about singing at all it is obvious that the cante has died a slow death and the guitar and dance have been taken to new "heights" interms of expression and creativity. Why is that? I say because since Spain has become more open, the younger generations no longer feel a need to precribe to the homegrown singing thing. There will always be aficianados and amatures at high level. But in the public light, the great professional singers are almost all gone because their art was cultivated from birth. Perhaps the next generations will revive the cante but as young adults (the age they probably would really identify with their family legacy or whatever) you won't possess the skills required to be like the old greats.

What we are left with for a long time now interms of good singers of flamenco, are the Camaroneros. Watch Flamenco by Saura, then put on Flamenco Flamenco to see how fast the cante died out vs Dance and guitar getting sophisticated.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2015 14:44:37
 
Morante

 

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RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Why is that? I say because since Spain has become more open, the younger generations no longer feel a need to precribe to the homegrown singing thing. There will always be aficianados and amatures at high level. But in the public light, the great professional singers are almost all gone because their art was cultivated from birth.


¡Olé!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2015 15:27:43
 
Miguel de Maria

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Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

It always seemed to me that cante was a little like classical music. You learn to sing these letra, this way. At its heart, it's profound, wonderful. But, also like classical music, it's basically a dead form, a museum. It's charming to sing about chickens and las minas, but a little weird if you have a smart phone in your pocket. Kind of the same reason I got tired of singing about waiting for the train in the blues , uh, never mind.

The further flamenco gets from one guitar beating on simple, but weird chords and one singer, the more effort it takes to listen to. I don't listen to solo guitar albums much unless I am consciously trying to learn/steal something.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2015 15:36:14
 
Morante

 

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RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

At its heart, it's profound, wonderful. But, also like classical music, it's basically a dead form, a museum.


If you had ever had the chance to play for a great cantaor, who never sings the same way twice, such as Rancapino or Juan Villar, you would not write this nonsense.

Read Ricardo´s post, he knows both sides.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2015 15:51:05

payaso

 

Posts: 85
Joined: Dec. 7 2014
 

RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

A challenge facing the flamenco guitar, I believe, is to evolve musically, beyond the introduction of strange chords and superfast techniques. I may be quite wrong on this because I do not listen to many contemporary solo guitar records, but from what I have heard most guitar solos now consist of a miscellany of short bits of music, perhaps introduced by a freeform intro with weird chording, then a mixed bag of falsetas, an almost perfunctory use of rhythm compases (or parts of compases) and no discernible overall form or development. – and certainly no memorable melodic theme.

This bittiness presumably reflects the origins of the guitar falseta as an interlude between verses of the cante, and players feel free to use bits from many different sources, some copied from other players, others modified from those copies, and others more their own creation. It would be strange indeed to see a classical player performing a few bars of Bach, then switching to Mozart then to Stravinsky. And the bits are so short in many flamenco guitar solos that one has hardly taken in one falseta before the next one is played.

Comparing this approach to other forms of western music, there seems to be a striking lack of repetition (which greatly aids memorization – consider, for example, Irish or Scottish folk music, or pop) ), recurring melody, variation or thematic development. Of course there are exceptions such as, notably, the Gypsy Kings, who have used a flamenco idiom, albeit nearly all in rumbas, to achieve enormous world-wide popularity. Entre Dos Aguas is another exception and others can be cited, particularly the great maestros such as Sabicas or (mainly earlier?) PdL .

What I am suggesting here is that technical development and the desire to introduce new harmonies may have outstripped musicality in the guitar, and that players are not learning to create the sort of music that people who are not guitarists or specialized aficionados of the guitar enjoy listening to very much.

I think it would be good if the melodic essence of the cante, particulary if it is eclipsed in popularity and innovation at the present time, could become more of a guiding inspiration for guitarists.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2015 16:11:14
 
Miguel de Maria

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Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Morante

You mean Ricardo who wrote: "well, if you care about singing at all it is obvious that the cante has died a slow death."? It doesn't seem incompatible with the impressions of mine that I shared. Incidentally, I also love classical music, a museum art form, but the heydays of Bach/Mozart/Beethoven are long gone.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2015 20:01:51
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Morante

Miguel
You dont seem to understand that Cante Flamenco and classical music is more than anything about interpretation.
Non of it is dead. Its only dead inside your head. Nothing else.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2015 22:35:38
 
Miguel de Maria

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From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Kind of presumptuous, anders.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2015 0:15:47
 
estebanana

Posts: 9538
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RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Morante

quote:

quote:

At its heart, it's profound, wonderful. But, also like classical music, it's basically a dead form, a museum.


If you had ever had the chance to play for a great cantaor, who never sings the same way twice, such as Rancapino or Juan Villar, you would not write this nonsense.


Or even listened to a good singer in person more than twice.

_
Many of my older buddies that went to Spain in the early 1960's always say things back then were more oppressive governmentally, there was a lot less money, and at times food was scarce for gitanos.

They said all this meant that people had to entertain themselves, not turn on the TV or computer. They always say that these conditions made the cante' tradition strong. Good singers could rise up out of abject poverty, or make more money on the side by singing.

Now there are more 'Shrimpclones' and regional styles of cante' have not been passed on as much because of a homogenization of language better roads and connections between cities. The national radio and news broadcasts, ( in most countries today) have contributed to a flattening out of regional dialects and idioms, which has some effect on listeners.

Anyway I know people their 60's and 70 today who were in Spain back then and they say odd things like "In some ways Franco was good for flamenco because he had a lock down on the country and all you could do was find some place to sing to pass the time."

Funny stuff.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2015 1:41:03
 
DavRom

 

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From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

i'm learning a lot from this thread about flamenco, but
one thing i can certainly add is that classical music is NOT a dead art form

and i think of flamenco as a living growing art form. i don't agree when some say it's folk music. i believe it went beyond that a long time ago. agree?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2015 1:43:03
 
estebanana

Posts: 9538
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to payaso

quote:

A challenge facing the flamenco guitar, I believe, is to evolve musically, beyond the introduction of strange chords and superfast techniques.


I like this, but I also like outsider chords. I'm not as opposed to funky off kilter harmony as I am to speed for speed sake.

I have been listening to a lot of mid 20th century classical guitar and flamenco recordings and speed is at the service of musicality. Today and I say this at the risk of getting up the dander of the guitarists in the thread, I think there is a benchmark for testing guitar players mettle which has to do with seeing how fast one can play.

For me strange chords are welcome, but a little less 'show off speeding' would be nice. It's music not drag racing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2015 2:11:47
 
estebanana

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RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to DavRom

quote:

one thing i can certainly add is that classical music is NOT a dead art form


And you get your first Ole'! for that.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2015 2:14:09
 
BarkellWH

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Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to DavRom

quote:

one thing i can certainly add is that classical music is NOT a dead art form


You are correct, of course. This has all been covered recently in the thread entitled, "Do the Classics Suppress Creative Works of Music? Art? Literature?." There are those who think that, to quote one contributor to this thread, "...the heydays of Bach/Mozart/Beethoven are long gone." To call them "museum pieces" is a bit absurd, given that they continue to be performed regularly to appreciative audiences and, as Anders pointed out, are constantly being interpreted and reinterpreted, i.e., they are alive. It is ironic that one can call them "museum pieces," yet argue that they have suppressed (presumably via intimidation) modern classical (serious) music. That is a position that appears to want it both ways.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2015 2:17:00
 
estebanana

Posts: 9538
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What is flamenco today? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

You mean Ricardo who wrote: "well, if you care about singing at all it is obvious that the cante has died a slow death."? It doesn't seem incompatible with the impressions of mine that I shared. Incidentally, I also love classical music, a museum art form, but the heydays of Bach/Mozart/Beethoven are long gone.

__________


I get sweaty and irritable when I hear this 'Classic music is a dead white mans Eurocentric museum piece' stuff.

That argument is so cliche' and useless. Miguel you superimpose some odd cultural and historical outlook baggage on music. More than one person has noticed this.

I think what Anders said is spot on in your case. I also have to say Anders and I are the only guitar makers who step out and express what we really think instead of flattering would be customers or remaining silent. So if we criticize something it's not some flippant judgment or capricious whim, because we pay a heavy price for being more vocal.

Not to be harsh, but 'classical music is dead' is one of your pet tropes. It's not really true, classical music is very much alive.

Beethoven is going haunt you and spank you if you keep it up.


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2015 2:20:01
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