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Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

Bizare injury 

I've had my fair share of guitar related injuries in the past, but this is a new one to me.

Recently during picado practice I've started noticing an accumulation of tension in my ribs immediately underneath my right arm pit. It gets uncomfortable and gives me the desire to play standing up with a strap that puts the guitar somewhere down by my knees .

And tonight, I just started thinking about getting my guitar out and there it is, a feeling of tension and strain right there in the ribs before I even open the case.

It's the pits!!

Looks like I'll have to drop my dreams of having a picado like Juan and just develop an all out thumb style.

Did any of you guys ever have this? I'd love to hear any suggestions - sensible or ridiculous - for clearing up this mess. In the mean time I'm gonna try a large medicinal glass of rum - it won't cure the arm pit, but it will drown my sorrows.

Dudpits


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2015 1:38:50
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
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From: Los Angeles

RE: Bizare injury (in reply to Dudnote

What a pitty!
Never had this happen but I couldn't resist the terrible pun! Lol

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2015 2:40:04
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to Dudnote

I have had similar things occur. Usually from trying to push tempo too far too fast and tensing up. I think it is probably a sort of subconscious "panic" reaction. In the past I have had a lot of problems with undue muscle tension, tendonitis etc.etc.

The solution I have used is to mentally disconnect the inappropriate tensing reaction from the mental intention to execute the technique.

You can achieve this by mentally practising the technique away from the guitar. Think through what you need to play picado, imagining yourself doing it, without the tensing up.

When you can do this easily, consistently and at will, you can try going back to the guitar and trying to put it into practise. It might take some time to practise mentally first, and you might find that when you go back to the guitar you go straight back to the tensing reaction. In that case, you haven't practised away from the guitar enough!

If you follow this through eventually it will work out. Also when you do go to the guitar you will need to practise slow and maintain the mental practise you have been doing without the guitar.

This is not the same as "visualisation" because in visualisation you are outside yourself, looking at yourself doing something, and not necessarily mentally practising the technique you want eventually to put into practise on the guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2015 9:24:21
 
Ruphus

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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to Dudnote

Very much agree with what´s been said.
Optimum would be guitar playing without any tension.

Here in case of physical cause:
http://media.fitnessuebungen-zuhause.de/training/oberen_brustmuskel_dehnen_eins2.png
Couldn´t find a suitable picture, but you may try basically doing this, only whilst sitting on the ground. With your hands on the ground, fingertips pointing away from you.
Then move your butt forward, stretching the arms further to the point that you can endure.

Then press as if you were trying to push your hands through the ground towards yourself. Do so firmly for 8 seconds. Then relief without altering position. When relaxed stretch a tad further and contract again. Make three repetitions before ending the exercise.
Be gentle and without sudden movements when getting out of the position. And don´t engage / strain your arms aferwards for aat least a minute.


http://fitnessuebungen-zuhause.de/bild.html?src=trizeps_dehnen_eins2
Similar with this position. Different from the photo: You should be grabbing the ellbow and pull the arm backwards behind your head. When stretched, contract as if you were wanting to bring the arm down into natural position. Following same principle as in above example, however without giving in into altering posture.
Like above make three repetitions of stretching, relaxing, contracting.

Pain in the rib cage often has to do with lack of physical exercise.
Even if the exercises cited were to free you from the pain in only a few days or weeks, you may seek for some sports like swimming or so.

Hope that will help.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2015 10:01:40

payaso

 

Posts: 85
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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to mark indigo

That sounds good advice, but there may be another way of looking at this. Sometimes anxiety – apprehension, tension or panic – can be a warning of real imminent danger that needs to be taken seriously and not always dismissed as inappropriate. The desire to achieve a super-fast picado seems to be a major stumbling block for many would-be flamenco guitarists, and a potential source of injury and despair. Yet this most unmusical of techniques, now so dominant in flamenco guitar today, is not an essential part of the essence of flamenco and of ‘flamencura’ and may even detract from it. Maybe one should heed the warning and turn instead to trying to express the emotional power of flamenco, not just the pyrotechnics impressive to some other guitarists but not so much to other listeners.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2015 10:15:21
 
Miguel de Maria

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From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Bizare injury (in reply to Dudnote

When I tried to copy how Paco played scales, my natural reaction was to tense up my hand. That loud, noisy, staccato sound just seemed tense to me. Considering how many times I have gotten injured from practicing picado, I'm not sure if it's even worth it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2015 13:41:56
 
Mark2

Posts: 1953
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Bizare injury (in reply to payaso

I've seen this viewpoint written many times, and can see the wisdom in it, but the reality is much different IMO. While I, and certainly many others, can appreciate guitarists without fast picado, most of the top players have developed it. Some use it to better effect than others. When you listen to or attend a live performance you can hear the reaction to a great picado. Unmusical? Not when done at the right moment. It may indeed not be essential to "real" flamenco, whatever that might mean to various folks, but a huge percentage of listeners are very much interested in well executed single note runs. I agree it is in fact a potential source of injury and despair, but that doesn't change the fact that the public, and many aficionados, are very impressed with it. It is the most difficult technique to develop, which might in part explain it's appeal.


quote:

ORIGINAL: payaso

That sounds good advice, but there may be another way of looking at this. Sometimes anxiety – apprehension, tension or panic – can be a warning of real imminent danger that needs to be taken seriously and not always dismissed as inappropriate. The desire to achieve a super-fast picado seems to be a major stumbling block for many would-be flamenco guitarists, and a potential source of injury and despair. Yet this most unmusical of techniques, now so dominant in flamenco guitar today, is not an essential part of the essence of flamenco and of ‘flamencura’ and may even detract from it. Maybe one should heed the warning and turn instead to trying to express the emotional power of flamenco, not just the pyrotechnics impressive to some other guitarists but not so much to other listeners.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2015 15:21:58
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Bizare injury (in reply to Mark2

Not sure why so many people feel the term "picado" is synonomous with "fast scale run"....the technique is essential for playing basic melodies, as much so as a proper pulgar which can be equally difficult to do correctly. If folks simply look at a "fast scale run" as a basic melody/rhythm then this tension problems and mental blocks would disappear for the most part. Controlling rhythm/tempo is key for ALL techniques.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2015 17:31:44
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3626
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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to payaso

quote:

That sounds good advice, but there may be another way of looking at this. Sometimes anxiety – apprehension, tension or panic – can be a warning of real imminent danger that needs to be taken seriously and not always dismissed as inappropriate. The desire to achieve a super-fast picado seems to be a major stumbling block for many would-be flamenco guitarists, and a potential source of injury and despair. Yet this most unmusical of techniques, now so dominant in flamenco guitar today, is not an essential part of the essence of flamenco and of ‘flamencura’ and may even detract from it. Maybe one should heed the warning and turn instead to trying to express the emotional power of flamenco, not just the pyrotechnics impressive to some other guitarists but not so much to other listeners.


I couldn't decide whether to tease you about all those awful "modern" players who "overused" picado like Ramon Montoya, Manolo de Huelva, Melchor de Marchena, Niño Ricardo, Manuel Morao, Sabicas, Mario Escudero..... well, they all had killer picado IMO.

But maybe better just to point out that, ironically, my first guitar injury (something like 20-25 yrs ago now) was when I jammed up my carpel tunnel practising pulgar, and it was most probably (I can't actually remember) on some Paco Peña falseta that he got from Niño Ricardo....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2015 21:56:59
 
pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013
 

RE: Bizare injury (in reply to Dudnote

Breathe!
Try it ....Make sure you don't hold your breath whilst playing or when you are thinking of playing...it can really f uck things up for people without them realising its happening. Hope you suss the issue and soon, whatever it is!!!

Best

pink

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2015 22:50:35
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to pink

quote:

Breathe!


or else!

my dad had just got his dog used to not eating anything when it went and died

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2015 23:07:24
 
pink

Posts: 570
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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Breathe!


or else!

my dad had just got his dog used to not eating anything when it went and died


I would imagine they were spending too much time on Bach!!


Best

pink

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2015 11:54:51
 
estebanana

Posts: 9539
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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to Dudnote

Dud,

Before you play and after you play~ Roll up a bath towel into a cylinder. Place it on the floor and lay on it with your neck supported with cylinder between your shoulder blades.

Hold you arms out like you are being crucified ( haha) and lay them gently on the floor. Then just breath and feel your chest open up.

You can do this as a passive-easy-breathing stretch for five or ten minutes. It helps open your ribs and chest and this can help the guitar playing a great deal. It might take three or four days to notice but play easy, stretch easy and gradually get into picado playing.

I'll tell you it's working for me.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 13 2015 2:38:20
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: Bizare injury (in reply to estebanana

Thanks guys for pitting your wits against this problem. Loads of good stuff here.

Lenador wins the prize for the best pun . Mark, you imagining approach sounds promising. Ruphus, your second stretch hits the spot - I feel a pull all the way down the inside of my upper arm. Mark, hope your Dad's dog gets better soon. Estabana - I tried your crucifix stretch on a gym ball and it's the dog's bollox (not Mark's dog, a young randy dog)! Pink, you don't know how much effort breathing takes when its 30 deg C + 80 % humidity + that worst of Payo bad habits - over working. Looking forward to life, body and soul return to normal soon.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 13 2015 5:29:00
 
Ruphus

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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to Dudnote

Funny cartoon!

Keep in mind that it is not so much about the stretching than about isometric contraction that will yield prolongation through building up muscular cells length wise / long-term relief.
-

Another thing always worth considering is a major focus on tension free execution.
Whenever there is strain there is wrong execution, extra engagement and opposed muscles at work simultaneously. (Possibly caused by false ideal / imagination as suggested above, but technically more often than not also by wrong planting and beforehand wrong posture.)

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 13 2015 10:20:13
 
El Kiko

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From: The South Ireland

RE: Bizare injury (in reply to Dudnote

quote:

Lenador wins the prize for the best pun


that comment actually struck a chord, but i wont fret , i will just change the string and make it sound hole again,, that attitude should resonate with the people here.

(phew)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 13 2015 20:13:19
 
Dudnote

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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to El Kiko

Ole Kiko !!!!



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 13 2015 23:15:51
 
estebanana

Posts: 9539
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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to Dudnote

quote:

Estabana - I tried your crucifix stretch on a gym ball and it's the dog's bollox


A gym ball is too high, you should be on the floor. The gym ball is for something else, another kind of stretch.

The rolled up towel should be restful and low impact. With the gymball, yes you can break your **** if you are way up there. You have to concentrate too much on balance.

Down on the floor laying on your back in a Yoga position called 'corpse pose' with the towel under you, you will get a gentle release of the ribs after 2 or 3 minutes of deep breathing. The ribs and the sides of your torso take at least a 90 second stretch to begin to open, so you have to breath into your ribs and sides in the corpse pose with the towel under your back for several minutes.

The problem with the gym ball is that you tense up constantly as you try to maintain balance, in the floor you just let go and breathe.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2015 5:31:36
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to Dudnote

quote:

Mark, you imagining approach sounds promising.

I think it was an unfortunate choice of mine to use that word, as it may give the wrong impression.
I did use "mental practise" or similar construction several times.
As I understand the physiology, for movement to occur at least one muscle has to contract, and the tendon attached to it has to cross a joint for that joint to move.
It's pretty obvious that contracting muscles in the area of your ribs aren't necessary to flex and extend the fingers, as the relevant muscles for those movements are in the forearm, the tendons running down to cross the joints in the fingers.

Where it gets really interesting though is how those muscle contractions occur.
There has to be a desire to make the movement in question, there has to be a mental conception of how that movement is to occur, and the "orders" have to be formulated in the brain and sent via the nerves to the muscle to tell it to contract.
If you can improve the mental processes that create the movement in the first place, and remove extraneous instructions from the program (like contracting unnecessary muscles in the neck, or torso) through mental practise then you will be stopping off at source the unnecessary muscle tension.

Sure, stretches and lying on the floor with books under your head, or towels or tennis balls between your shoulder blades can be nice, and can help relieve aches and pains and can help to relax out of tension once you have created it, and for some people that is enough.
But long term I believe it is better if you can prevent the problem in the first place, rather than to go on keep creating the problems and then seeking relief from them.
When I had a lot of problems with tendonitis I also had crippling pains in my neck and back, which led me to have to take all this fairly seriously.
I also found that stretching, books, towels, tennis balls (I tried them all!) had little effect because I was SOOOOO tense that the second I stopped whichever stretch/relaxation technique I was practising I was instantly tense again.
Sometimes they didn't even stop me being tense at all, and not only that but some of the stretches actually made things worse because I was tensing one set of muscles up in order to pull on (ie."stretch") the set that seemed tense in the first place, and I ended up with double the tension I started with!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2015 16:52:43
 
estebanana

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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

Where it gets really interesting though is how those muscle contractions occur.
There has to be a desire to make the movement in question, there has to be a mental conception of how that movement is to occur, and the "orders" have to be formulated in the brain and sent via the nerves to the muscle to tell it to contract.
If you can improve the mental processes that create the movement in the first place, and remove extraneous instructions from the program (like contracting unnecessary muscles in the neck, or torso) through mental practise then you will be stopping off at source the unnecessary muscle tension.


Yes this is true, dropping as much non intrinsic movement as possible is a good way to work. When we play, we do many many things we don't need to do. I struggle with this as well.

But the reason I keep saying lay on the floor and do nothing but breathe is because you can learn what zero, or as close to zero, movement feels like while doing nothing before you reconstruct the playing and leaving out non essential movements.

If you lay on the floor and breathe you will have a very difficult time doing nothing and dropping the non essential stresses and movements. Laying down you have a good chance to observe the body and the mind when you do nothing, but breathe. Think of how simple that sounds, yet when you try laying on the floor the mind has a hard time to settle into it because it is a control freak, and it's running itself ten times faster that it needs to go.

Then think about playing the guitar, it's way more complex than lay down just breathing and observing how the mind wants to take control of all the little twitches and non essential movements when you are being still. See the mind will learn to relax faster by training it to settle down while doing a less complex task. Guitar playing is really complex and we do about 5 or 6 things we don't need to do in addition to the things we must do to make the guitar work. So a way to teach the mind to settle down is to be still and breathe and watch the mind go through it's routine.

The breathing, opening up of the chest and ribs and the mind settling happen at the same time. I think it is easier to learn relaxation by reducing the movements to the least you can do and watch your mind. Your mind will go nuts right before your eyes, so to speak, and when you begin to feel the connection between the mind calming and the body opening you can try to get that feeling then you are doing more complex tasks.

The thing you have to ask the mind do, is to just let you breathe and open up. The mind hates this and will fight back because it's in the skull on top of the body and it thinks it knows more than you do or the body. When you talk about tendons and muscle connections and kinesthetics of playing the guitar this is all correct. But try that without a guitar with nothing, but breathing.

One of the big problems with stressful playing is breathing unevenly, holding your breath, forgetting to breathe, denying your self breath because it might mess up an arm movement. The chances are very good you don't even know you are not breathing into your playing. Making natural breathing part of the playing process is a good beginning towards less stress.

And breathing well makes the movements in playing more efficient. Breathe, play slow, don't over think.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2015 3:18:57
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to estebanana

quote:

the mind has a hard time to settle into it because it is a control freak, and it's running itself ten times faster that it needs to go.

I know. That's why I signed up for a Vipassana silent meditation retreat. 8 hours a day meditation, over 10 days. No talking. No books or pens, no reading or writing. No radio or tv or cd or mp3. No singing or musical instruments.
Just me and my crazy monkey mind.... And then a year later I went back and did it all again.
But you know what? As soon as I picked up the guitar again all of the old habits came back because I was using the same protocols, the same set of "instructions" as before.
I had already practised yoga too before this, so plenty of corpse pose etc.
But you know what? My internal/subconscious concept of standing involved such a lot of tension in my neck and torso that as soon as I stood up from the floor I just cranked it all back up without, of course, realising I was doing it.
As I said, for some people relaxation or stretching exercises might be enough to initiate changing the way they play, but it sure wasn't for me.
It is often said that it is better to learn technique right in the first place because bad habits are hard to change. I think what I am talking about here is why they are so hard to change.
One of the reasons I went straight back to playing in my bad old way after yoga or meditation or stretching or whatever was that I had PRACTISED playing in that bad old way for so long!

quote:

The thing you have to ask the mind do, is to just let you breathe and open up. The mind hates this and will fight back because it's in the skull on top of the body and it thinks it knows more than you do or the body. When you talk about tendons and muscle connections and kinesthetics of playing the guitar this is all correct. But try that without a guitar with nothing, but breathing.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "ask the mind....to just let you breathe" but I know from experience that letting breathing occur naturally, autonomically, without interfering, is one of the hardest things to master.
I can't say that I'm where I want to be with that, but I'm certainly a long way from where I was when I was in the middle of the problems I have been referring to in this thread.

And "try that without a guitar" is exactly what I was suggesting above.

I'm also not sure if we are meaning the same things by "mind" "body" and "thinking" etc. - I think the further we look into mind and body the harder it becomes to separate them. Neither exists without the other.
Some physiologists believe that the spinal column is part of the brain, and some include the entire system of nerves throughout the body.
I'm not saying that mind and brain are synonymous either, but if the brain extends throughout the body it becomes harder to distinguish between "mental" and "physical". Some refer to "psycho-physical unity".
What I refer to as "mental processes" that create all movement are not the same as the inner dialogue type "thoughts" that monitor, judge, edit, critic etc.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2015 12:43:32
 
estebanana

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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

I know. That's why I signed up for a Vipassana silent meditation retreat. 8 hours a day meditation, over 10 days. No talking. No books or pens, no reading or writing. No radio or tv or cd or mp3. No singing or musical instruments.
Just me and my crazy monkey mind.... And then a year later I went back and did it all again.
But you know what? As soon as I picked up the guitar again all of the old habits came back because I was using the same protocols, the same set of "instructions" as before.
I had already practised yoga too before this, so plenty of corpse pose etc.
But you know what? My internal/subconscious concept of standing involved such a lot of tension in my neck and torso that as soon as I stood up from the floor I just cranked it all back up without, of course, realising I was doing it.
As I said, for some people relaxation or stretching exercises might be enough to initiate changing the way they play, but it sure wasn't for me.
It is often said that it is better to learn technique right in the first place because bad habits are hard to change. I think what I am talking about here is why they are so hard to change.
One of the reasons I went straight back to playing in my bad old way after yoga or meditation or stretching or whatever was that I had PRACTISED playing in that bad old way for so long!


First I respect and acknowledge your work at a Buddhist and meditation practice. I also respect your sense of how to move though it in whichever way you see best for yourself. I'm going to say a few critical things about Vipassanna based on my observation of practitioners I've spent time with and listened to about how they practice. I'm not directing this at you personally. I began meditation a long time ago and I drifted through various kinds of practice the first three years until I found one that made sense to me that was not too esoteric or culty. The schools of practice I checked out were a few Indian kinds of practice, Tibetan, Ningma sect stuff in particular, a few others. After some time I ran into these very well trained Soto Zen monks in Berkeley, and I stuck with them because they were the most normal, least pushy and never asked for or pressed for money. I did not ever work with any of the chanting cults kinds of Japanese Buddhism that some of my friends were into, now I see on TV in Japan the lady who invented it. She's not even a real monk.

I have to admit I'm not really a very good buddhist either, I'm pretty sloppy and out of trim. But there were some years when I was involved everyday and around very well trained monks. I learned a lot of common sense things about Buddhism from them.

We both have experience at meditation, but many others here don't, so when you or I say general things like "breathe, breathe", for them it might be a new idea. So I think any kind of talk about this is good, but I've been in an our of Meditation practice for 30 years and in that time I've seen patterns, sometimes meditation, breath watching, yoga works and some time sit does not. For the same person, these kids of practices may not work for few years and then the situation changes and they become beneficial and helpful. For you obviously you are not into it.

On the subject of Vipassana practice, I've got my doubts about it, as you have yours about the yoga stuff. The stories I hear from Vipasanna goers are often times like your story. I've heard that over and over through the years.

The thing about a practice is that once a year for an intense ten days is fine, but that kind of intensity needs to be supported by a lot of build up to it. I have talked to full time transmitted monks in other sects of Buddhism who have really careful things to say about Vipassanna. One of the observations is that they say is look we do this every day beginning at 5 am and then a few more times during the day, and we work very consistently everyday this practice. They will go to retreats in the monastery when they close the monastery to lay persons and do a practice that lasts several days and it's not meant to cure them of anything, but to deepen the practice they have everyday.

I've never gone to a long ten day retreat where you can speak, for me I see no reason to do that. And the monks I have been around have also said you know for a lay person ten days is too much once a year. It's like grabbing your guitar and practicing for a hundred hours in one week and then expecting the rest of the year to be workable with no more practice the rest of the year. The monks I have been around in the Soto school say if you can manage 10- 15 minutes a day of sitting practice you'll be better off than going whole hog once a year and wrecking your knees and your back.

The other reason I won't do vipassnna is because they encourage sitting through body pain. I heard Vipass people come back from retreats and say, "Oh I was getting leg cramps and numbness, etc, but I just sat through it. " I think that is really stupid, for one when you get older you simply can sustain a kind of practice where you have to tough it through body difficulties, there are enough complications without needing to have pain to overcome. The idea by contrast in Soto training is that the practice is not aimed at dealing with pain while you sit, it is maintained by sitting everyday with good spine shape and a bright mind. At a Soto retreat maybe an older person would sit in chair and not try to sit through physical pain that younger vipass people seem think they have to endure.

Anyway, someone just pulled up to my shop with a bee hive in the back of a truck and they are trying to give it to me. So I have to go figure out what to do with a bee hive now.

But again, I'm not being critical of you personally or any ones practice, just relating some things I have observed about different kinds of practice. Probably the best outcome of this conversation is that is reminds me to go sit myself down a bit.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2015 2:28:18
 
Ruphus

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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to Dudnote

I think there is something to it that sitting should be comfortable.
It shouldn´t matter much whether sitting or even laying as long as it is as much at poise / avoiding strain as possible.

First thing I show to guitar students / guitarists is how to figure a sitting position on a chair that allows for passively keeping the back straight / without extra muscle efforts.
(After having told them that the most suitable, ergonomic and musically supportive position is standing upright with a one-bearing-point holding system that centers the guitar near solar plexus, naturally.)

Also agree that, the way I undestand it, mediation method just like any physical discipline should advance the spontaneous finding of the perfect practice situation.

From there a greater number of approaches should be of higher efficiency, compared to length of fewer sessions.
(Similar to say guitar practising. Many sessions, even if just short ones, yield way more advance than a small number of lengthy ones.)

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2015 11:40:19
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3626
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Bizare injury (in reply to estebanana

quote:

First I respect and acknowledge your work at a Buddhist and meditation practice. I also respect your sense of how to move though it in whichever way you see best for yourself. I'm going to say a few critical things about Vipassanna based on my observation of practitioners I've spent time with and listened to about how they practice. I'm not directing this at you personally. I began meditation a long time ago and I drifted through various kinds of practice the first three years until I found one that made sense to me that was not too esoteric or culty. The schools of practice I checked out were a few Indian kinds of practice, Tibetan, Ningma sect stuff in particular, a few others. After some time I ran into these very well trained Soto Zen monks in Berkeley, and I stuck with them because they were the most normal, least pushy and never asked for or pressed for money. I did not ever work with any of the chanting cults kinds of Japanese Buddhism that some of my friends were into, now I see on TV in Japan the lady who invented it. She's not even a real monk.

I have to admit I'm not really a very good buddhist either, I'm pretty sloppy and out of trim. But there were some years when I was involved everyday and around very well trained monks. I learned a lot of common sense things about Buddhism from them.

We both have experience at meditation, but many others here don't, so when you or I say general things like "breathe, breathe", for them it might be a new idea. So I think any kind of talk about this is good, but I've been in an our of Meditation practice for 30 years and in that time I've seen patterns, sometimes meditation, breath watching, yoga works and some time sit does not. For the same person, these kids of practices may not work for few years and then the situation changes and they become beneficial and helpful. For you obviously you are not into it.

On the subject of Vipassana practice, I've got my doubts about it, as you have yours about the yoga stuff. The stories I hear from Vipasanna goers are often times like your story. I've heard that over and over through the years.

The thing about a practice is that once a year for an intense ten days is fine, but that kind of intensity needs to be supported by a lot of build up to it. I have talked to full time transmitted monks in other sects of Buddhism who have really careful things to say about Vipassanna. One of the observations is that they say is look we do this every day beginning at 5 am and then a few more times during the day, and we work very consistently everyday this practice. They will go to retreats in the monastery when they close the monastery to lay persons and do a practice that lasts several days and it's not meant to cure them of anything, but to deepen the practice they have everyday.

I've never gone to a long ten day retreat where you can speak, for me I see no reason to do that. And the monks I have been around have also said you know for a lay person ten days is too much once a year. It's like grabbing your guitar and practicing for a hundred hours in one week and then expecting the rest of the year to be workable with no more practice the rest of the year. The monks I have been around in the Soto school say if you can manage 10- 15 minutes a day of sitting practice you'll be better off than going whole hog once a year and wrecking your knees and your back.

The other reason I won't do vipassnna is because they encourage sitting through body pain. I heard Vipass people come back from retreats and say, "Oh I was getting leg cramps and numbness, etc, but I just sat through it. " I think that is really stupid, for one when you get older you simply can sustain a kind of practice where you have to tough it through body difficulties, there are enough complications without needing to have pain to overcome. The idea by contrast in Soto training is that the practice is not aimed at dealing with pain while you sit, it is maintained by sitting everyday with good spine shape and a bright mind. At a Soto retreat maybe an older person would sit in chair and not try to sit through physical pain that younger vipass people seem think they have to endure.

Anyway, someone just pulled up to my shop with a bee hive in the back of a truck and they are trying to give it to me. So I have to go figure out what to do with a bee hive now.

But again, I'm not being critical of you personally or any ones practice, just relating some things I have observed about different kinds of practice. Probably the best outcome of this conversation is that is reminds me to go sit myself down a bit.



I've been away a few days but wanted to reply to your post on a few points.

I don't take any of this personally and have no problem with other approaches to Buddhism and meditation. I haven't practised for a long time, maybe 10 years, and I'm not a Buddhist. I'm also not advocating or promoting Vipassana in any way.

I had taken various classes in meditation and yoga for some years before encountering Vipassana, and leading up to the first time I took the course I was practising maybe 20 minutes a day (I went occasionally to drop-in meditation sessions that sat for 20 minutes), so there was some build up to it. I also knew socially quite a few people who had taken the course, and it never seemed culty either before or after I tried the course.

Vipassana is a meditation technique (according to tradition the meditation technique that the Buddha used to reach his enlightenment), and there are various groups and organisations that teach and practise it. I don't suppose they are all the same.

I don't think it is "like grabbing your guitar and practicing for a hundred hours in one week" I think it is more like practising half an hour a day, and then once a year taking a week's workshop/course in Spain where you have classes and hang out and play a lot.

The course I took in Vipassana a couple of times had 8 hours of meditation a day on the timetable, but only 3 of those were actually monitored. So for those 3 one hour sessions if you didn't turn up they came to look for you to check if you were ok, or if there was some kind of problem. The other 5 hours on the schedule were listed as "meditate in the hall or in your room", and if you practised in your room and lay down for a little rest and a snooze no one minded. Or you could take a walk round the open grass field behind the hall, and through the woods at the end of the field and stretch your legs. There were also wooden benches at the top of the field so you could sit and watch the birds and clouds etc. etc.

Talking with the other people taking the course was prohibited, but you could approach the course "manager" for any material problem (eg. if you run out of toothpaste), and there was opportunity to see the course leader/teacher daily for any issues related to the meditation practise.

I guess it seems like a fairly "hardcore" meditation course, but maybe it is not that extreme in the culture and tradition it comes from. It is a non-monastic lay tradition of householders who for whatever reason can't or don't want to commit to joining a monastery but still want to follow the teachings and practise of the Buddha (according to the interpretation of that particular tradition), so they set up a 10 day course as the minimum period needed to learn the technique, and recommend daily practise and taking a 10 day course annually to top up.

I took the course again a year later, and in between sat for 40-60 minutes a day (actually I think they recommend an hour TWICE a day, but I just never had the time!). There's no way I would have the time or inclination to do that now, but that was then and I don't think it did me any harm!

As for sitting through pain, yes you are encouraged not to get up and go for a walk at the first bit of discomfort, but no one beats you with sticks if you move! There are a lot of cushions provided, and there are chairs at the back of the hall. Some people practise sitting on the chairs.

They also ask a lot of questions on the application form, I guess to screen out people who are not suitable, or who are going to have problems with the course.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 21 2015 19:14:05
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: Bizare injury (in reply to estebanana

Thanks everyone for the discussion here. The injury got pretty bad at one point and all techniques were in for it not just picado. It is clear to get more aire in my toque I need more air in the lungs. The comments here have really really helped. A few days off the guitar and onto the piano + a long overdue return to running and swimming + Estebanana's mega chest opening stretch + a blood-red lunar eclipse, and things are going much better.

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Ay compañerita de mi alma
tú ahora no me conoces.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2015 3:29:14
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