Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvir, Philip John Lee and Craig Eros who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





RE: Do the Classics Suppress Contemporary, Creative Works of Music? Literature? Art?   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>Off Topic >> Page: <<   <   2 3 4 5 [6]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Do the Classics Suppress Contemp... (in reply to runner

quote:

Desire vs. intent.


Is this a legal case?

If so kind of foggy. Could you fill in some details?

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2015 13:38:46
 
runner

 

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Do the Classics Suppress Contemp... (in reply to payaso

Payaso, I am looking forward to Ross' book eagerly. It's at the local library, with my hold on it. If you haven't yet read it, Lebrecht's book is also well worth reading, though it does not directly address the topic of the Old blocking the New so much as the Rich blocking the Poor.

Bill, I hope your exile in Palau, which for pathos mimics Ovid's groanings from the desolate shores of the Black Sea, is ended soon. Perhaps your Augustus will recall you to the land of the living, and you can read books again and not just reviews of books.

_____________________________

The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2015 13:41:42
 
runner

 

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Do the Classics Suppress Contemp... (in reply to estebanana

Stephen, I'd like one of your guitars. I do not intend to obtain one of your guitars.

_____________________________

The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2015 13:44:35
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Do the Classics Suppress Contemp... (in reply to runner

quote:

Bill, I hope your exile in Palau, which for pathos mimics Ovid's groanings from the desolate shores of the Black Sea, is ended soon. Perhaps your Augustus will recall you to the land of the living, and you can read books again and not just reviews of books.


Oh please, Runner I can shut you down with no books at all in my exile on here on Gilligan's Island Kyushu.

You seem to delight in swallowing whole books and regurgitating the ideas of the authors, but you don't read to synthesize your own reading on the world. You push the ideas of (the) book into the faces of others and claim that that is enough to prove your point.

Books present ideas, and intelligent readers collate and create compendiums of ideas that contribute to their own readings of history. So far all you can say to others is verbatim what you read, and you don't appear to internalize or fret over the material in any soul searching way. You are not willing to risk thinking for yourself and express opinions contrary to those of the authors you use to make your point.

You weaponize books in order to blast your way through a conversation with others. Books are not weapons. Least of all books about music or art.

Buy yourself a Glock 9mm and go to a shooting range. Target shooting is an absolute activity, art discussion is subjective and nuanced.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2015 13:59:16
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Do the Classics Suppress Contemp... (in reply to runner

quote:

Stephen, I'd like one of your guitars. I do not intend to obtain one of your guitars.

_____________________________


You can have one of my guitars when you pry it out of my cold dead hand.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2015 14:01:30
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3247
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Do the Classics Suppress Contemp... (in reply to runner

quote:

I am looking forward to Ross' book eagerly. It's at the local library, with my hold on it. Bill, I hope your exile in Palau, which for pathos mimics Ovid's groanings from the desolate shores of the Black Sea, is ended soon. Perhaps your Augustus will recall you to the land of the living, and you can read books again and not just reviews of books.


I am glad that you have taken my recommendation of Ross' book seriously, Runner. The review sounded great, and that's why I suggested it would likely be a good read. Payoso, who has read it, was referring to my recommendation when he concurred that it is an excellent book and has relevance to the topic of this thread.

Your comparison of my assignment to Palau to Ovid's "groanings" on the shores of the Black Sea makes no sense. Your comparison is of the same caliber as your analogy of Mao's "Hundred Flowers" speech to increased diversity resulting from the internet. Made no sense to anyone who actually knew something about Mao's motivation, anymore than it makes sense to compare my assignment to Palau to Ovid's Black Sea venture. where do you dig this stuff up? Are you taking Carlos Castaneda seriously and chewing hallucinogenic mushrooms, hoping to commune with Castaneda's invention Don Juan, the fictional Yaqui Indian shaman Castaneda foisted on a gullible readership?

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2015 14:24:31
 
runner

 

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Do the Classics Suppress Contemp... (in reply to estebanana

Dear, dear, I seem to have touched all of the sore teeth. We are as one, then, that I won't be looking for that guitar anytime soon.

_____________________________

The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2015 14:29:40
 
runner

 

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Do the Classics Suppress Contemp... (in reply to BarkellWH

Bill, again, Half-Credit for Trying. I assume you intend also to read the book, yes?

_____________________________

The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2015 14:33:58
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Do the Classics Suppress Contemp... (in reply to runner

quote:

Dear, dear, I seem to have touched all of the sore teeth. We are as one, then, that I won't be looking for that guitar anytime soon.



I have feet of clay, a penis like a telephone pole, and root canals all around my entire dentition.

Shall we tell some 'Yo mama" jokes now?

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2015 14:42:34
 
runner

 

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Do the Classics Suppress Contemp... (in reply to estebanana

Crazy, Man, Crazy. Is this the Inner, Real, Stephen? Second opinion? Ugly, too.

_____________________________

The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2015 14:50:43
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3247
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Do the Classics Suppress Contemp... (in reply to runner

Runner, you love to flatter yourself that you are the one who understands the books most dear to you, and that anyone who disagrees with you simply doesn't understand. Your self-flattery, however, blinds you and prevents you from stepping back and critically evaluating your own infatuation with the book and its author. You appear to lack the critical thought and judgment that might lend a different complexion to the work. A good example is your infatuation with Leonard Meyer. when challenged, you would not entertain the slightest criticism of Meyer from anyone, either on the Foro or among reviewers, and you eventually picked up your marbles and (figuratively) went home in a snit.

The first and most egregious example was your wholehearted endorsement of James Bradley's "The Imperial Cruise" a little over a year ago. I read that book when it was first published, and it was riddled with errors of fact. Moreover, it made wild claims that no reputable historian--or anyone with familiarity with the history of American policy toward Asia--would accept. One of the most egregious claims being that Teddy Roosevelt's policies regarding the Far East (including the "Imperial Cruise") led in a direct line to the Communist takeover of China and the Korean War! In one post on the subject, I listed 11 or 12 errors of fact in the book, and that was just the beginning. Yet you were infatuated (that is the only word to describe it) with the book. Again, just as there was no critical thought to determine if Mao's "Hundred Flowers" speech really had any relevance to internet diversity, there appeared to be no critical evaluation of Bradley's work. I can only imagine it fit a preconceived notion of yours about American policy toward Asia, and therefore you swallowed it whole. But whatever the reason, you swallowed it whole with no critical judgment to provide an azimuth check.

Your last intellectual arrow was loosed long ago, Runner, and your quiver is empty. You appear to compensate by attempting to belittle those with whom you disagree or who fail to share your enthusiasm for a particular work. It won't work. The game is up and has been for some time.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2015 15:16:21
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Do the Classics Suppress Contemp... (in reply to estebanana

Stephen,
I agree that making flamenco guitars is not the way to riches. And thank you for answering, but I don't quite believe that your output would be the same if you working only as an amateur (that is, "for the love", not a deprecation). You would not have the benefit of $3.5K/piece coming in to support your habit; you would have to do some other work to do that. So you might have to sink what, $500+ in each instrument instead of actually making a profit on each instrument that you could use to buy food, rent, etc. By the way, I do not doubt that you would do that, but I assume that you would do it less. Maybe the instruments that you made would be better, even if they didn't sound like Sergio Assad's CD. The reason I suggested this analogy is because the past masters also worked for money. Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn (the big three of classical music) composed on commission or through patronage. There is no evidence that they would have wanted to, or been able to, leave their amazing legacy to us without compensation for the works they created. The current scene for classical music is very different from Vienna at that time--an understatement. Here in America, the symphony halls are where symphonies are played; the repertoire is half pops and half or more earmarked for the past masters. There is very little space for a contemporary composer to have his work played. Of course, this is only one factor among many, and probably not the main one.

You think I over-emphasize economics, but it is a part of the deal. None of us chose this path to get rich.

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ


Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2015 17:36:34
 
runner

 

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Do the Classics Suppress Contemp... (in reply to BarkellWH

Bill, I again leave the darkened, empty theater, leaving the same two figures together on the stage. One has added sepsis to his usual habit of bombast; the other exhibits a frantic taedium vitae added to his endless regurgitation of things past (he never understood the stark simplicity of the Mao reference), and so the minuscule audience dwindled away--I am the last to depart. As before, I close the theater doors quietly behind me.....

I pick up the book tomorrow.

_____________________________

The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2015 20:23:44
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3247
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Do the Classics Suppress Contemp... (in reply to runner

quote:

I pick up the book tomorrow.


I assume you mean the book by Alex Ross that I recommended as looking like a good read that bears on the primary topic of this thread, and that Payoso heartily endorsed. I look forward to your thoughts on the book. I plan to read it myself upon returning to the U.S. But please do yourself a favor and, regardless how good it might appear during your reading, keep a bit of critical judgment in reserve. Take a mental azimuth check once in awhile to ensure you're not being blown off-course by infatuation a la Meyer and Bradley.

As for the two figures on stage in "the darkened, empty theatre" your fevered imagination has conjured, and which you mentally leave, you may recall the Associated Press article last time this happened, in which the reality was at variance with your wildly inaccurate (but internally consistent, according to your own lights) narrative. Please leave the theatre quietly, so as not to disturb the audience participating in the interactive give and take of the play being performed. We are sorry that you were not pleased with the production, but regret to advise that there will be no ticket refund.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2015 23:57:46
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Do the Classics Suppress Contemp... (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

Stephen,
I agree that making flamenco guitars is not the way to riches. And thank you for answering, but I don't quite believe that your output would be the same if you working only as an amateur (that is, "for the love", not a deprecation). You would not have the benefit of $3.5K/piece coming in to support your habit; you would have to do some other work to do that. So you might have to sink what, $500+ in each instrument instead of actually making a profit on each instrument that you could use to buy food, rent, etc. By the way, I do not doubt that you would do that, but I assume that you would do it less. Maybe the instruments that you made would be better, even if they didn't sound like Sergio Assad's CD. The reason I suggested this analogy is because the past masters also worked for money. Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn (the big three of classical music) composed on commission or through patronage. There is no evidence that they would have wanted to, or been able to, leave their amazing legacy to us without compensation for the works they created. The current scene for classical music is very different from Vienna at that time--an understatement. Here in America, the symphony halls are where symphonies are played; the repertoire is half pops and half or more earmarked for the past masters. There is very little space for a contemporary composer to have his work played. Of course, this is only one factor among many, and probably not the main one.

You think I over-emphasize economics, but it is a part of the deal. None of us chose this path to get rich.


I think most of the newer "classical' work is not being playing in big venues or symphonic halls. Really it's been my personal observation that major symphony orchestras are having economic problems, but that they are toughing through them.

Newer music (and old) also seems to be presented more in chamber groups and smaller ensembles/ The larger symphony groups are more difficult to sustain today and I think the venue model is changing to smaller groups, which can be self managed by the musicians in the group.

As for making 3.5 K on a guitar? Yes, that is often what I receive as a fee just because I'm not a top dollar blue chip name. Realistically speaking $3500.00 US was the price of a hand made good guitar in about 1996! The market based on 3.5 K per guitar is 20 years ago!

I remember guys 20 years ago getting $5000.00 or $6000.00 and still having head room in the market for higher prices.

Artists, writers, painters, guitar makers ect, all have a fast climb up in the beginning. If you work hard you can get a lot accomplished in the first five years, ten years, you gain a massive amount of skill and knowledge. Then typically an artist hits a plateau where they can often sit, on very high and accomplished ground, but the upward movement is far more difficult for this accomplished place.

What does it take to move into better work and higher fees from an already accomplished place? This is the most difficult part of creativity and an arts based living. A musician or artist can reach a high level fast with the right help and hard work, but the first plateau is easier to breach than the third or fourth. The last steps up hill are far more difficult.

We seem to be at loggerheads over whether or not the old masters suppress new works, or by extension of the argument economic conditions fortify that suppression.

I say straight up from personal experience none of that matters,(not one tiny bit) because it's never an end game of artist/craftsperson vs. the past masters or artists vs. bad economy. Once you reach a high level of accomplishment in writing, art, craft the old masters are less important, they remain in mind of course, but at the level where you are a master yourself on a high plateau and trying to move beyond your present level, the only thing on your way is yourself.

It is you vs. you. Economics and old masters mean less and less as you progress to higher levels of accomplishment, you are only giving the challenge to yourself. At that point I think artists look to the old masters as guides who have navigated those tricky waters. The old masters instead of being towers that make you cast doubt on yourself actually become more familiar and perhaps even people you identify with. The reason you identify with the the great artists is because you recognize in them people who pushed themselves up onto a higher plateau of work.


Rather than see the negative and feel suppressed, I choose to see the old masters, in what ever art form I'm looking at, as people who I feel close to; As I know they knew the loneliness of the isolation while you work and how much work it it takes to push yourself into higher accomplishment levels. The old masters are role models to me- if Beethoven pushed himself, if Picasso pushed himself, if Linda Manzer pushed herself, then dammit so can I!

I think if is were possible to have a seance' with Stravinsky or Mozart and we complained to them that they are suppressing new works, they would laugh and call us pussies.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2015 0:30:21
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Do the Classics Suppress Contemp... (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

As for the two figures on stage in "the darkened, empty theatre" your fevered imagination has constructed, and which you mentally leave, you may recall the Associated Press article last time this happened, in which the reality was at variance with your wildly inaccurate (but internally consistent, according to your own lights) narrative. Please leave the theatre quietly, so as not to disturb the audience participating in the interactive give and take of the play being performed. We are sorry that you were not pleased with the production, but regret to advise that there will be no ticket refund.

Bill


I have to respectfully disagree this time. I hope Runner stays to give a sotto voce reading of his new books, in dramatic monolog while you and I act you the last scenes of Waiting For Alex Ross.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2015 1:29:05
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Do the Classics Suppress Contemp... (in reply to estebanana

Okay, Stephen, I think I understand what you were trying to say more clearly. I never meant that an artist would feel suppressed/oppressed by knowledge of the past masters' achievements, but really in a concrete way of how performance opportunities and economic incentives would be diminished. I understand you believe that by the nature of the current environment, that the past masters' dominance of symphony programs is irrelevant to contemporary composers' activities.

Fair enough.

[By the way, I didn't mean to suggest $3.5K was an unfair price to charge, and I just grabbed that number out of the air. I noticed some of Kenny Hill's guitars that came from a type of assembly line process (?) are going for $6K+.]

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ


Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2015 2:06:53
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12998
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Do the Classics Suppress Contemp... (in reply to Miguel de Maria

All this boils down to really, is does $ influence new artworks, in what ways, and by how much?

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 21 2015 23:24:30
Page:   <<   <   2 3 4 5 [6]
All Forums >>Discussions >>Off Topic >> Page: <<   <   2 3 4 5 [6]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.0625 secs.