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estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

Triplet rasgueado wall 

The thumb up, two middle fingers down, thumb down triplet. I have that and have had it for many years at good speed, steady, clear changeable in dynamic, solid. Also loose and fluid, not stressed or forced.

Question, I have been at a wall to make it slightly faster, I have never been able to get it past a certain speed. The speed I have is good enough to use for dance accompaniment, but I want a bit more, just because I want to challenge that wall and I know it's possible and I like the sound.

Strategy to moving that hand a bit faster? I can't quite get my head around the problem, any ideas?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2015 0:53:46
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana

Try Vicente's posture/hand position for that, it looks very efficient to achieve high speeds. There are some recent videos where he does some high octane rasgueos. I would describe it has an awareness of hand weight and using it to your own benefit while keeping the arm very still, no jerky movement there.

It worked for me, could do it pretty fast before my muscular issue that has been bugging me for the last two months... maybe it was too much octane for me and I broke something inside.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2015 1:20:40
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana

I think I'm probably about the same as you bananasan and what I've noticed between me and pros is the pros are small tight rotations. Haven't seen yours to say that's your problem but I think that's mine.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2015 1:24:49
 
rombsix

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From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2015 3:58:56
 
orsonw

Posts: 1526
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana

I find it helpful to focus on the biomechanics of techniques but also at other times to focus only on rhythm.

I find Konnakol is very useful (with and without metronome). Eg short burst at the current limit of speed, gradually extend the phrase. Vary by using 4 and 3 note patterns and vary by starting/ ending with different stroke. Using voice alone, voice and movement or movement and thinking Konnakol. Get some different neural tracts active.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2015 15:53:31
 
estebanana

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana

Konnakol? Is that like Nembutal ??

I want to go FASTER!!!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 15 2015 7:54:17
 
machopicasso

 

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana

quote:


Strategy to moving that hand a bit faster? I can't quite get my head around the problem, any ideas?


I like that rasgueado a lot. Curiously -- and sorry if this is obvious --, are you practicing with a metronome? If so, at what bpm speed are you stuck?

I've greatly improved the speed of my arpeggio on the bass strings just by playing a lengthy falseta at one speed and then playing it a second time 5bpm's faster. Once I can play the second one clean, I increase the speed for each by 1 or 2 bpm's. Then repeat. My arpeggio's now a lot faster than I ever expected. I don't see why one couldn't do the same for the triplet rasgueado.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 15 2015 9:57:30
 
estebanana

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana

I think of the metronome as a tool to make ones beats even and measured out. Maybe with picado it helps to go fast.

This is a plain speed issue, some mechanical thing I have to figure out. My technique is not sloppy or out of control, just not as fast as I would like.

I think it has to do with changing a triplet figure into a double triplet. Normally one beat is one rasgueado triplet so for a slower palo where the BPM is lower it's fairly easy to work to hit one triplet per beat. But say you want to do a intro to Solea for a dancer and they ask for a slow tempo, like they often do, getting a triplet to go with a slow tempo is not a big deal, it also does not sound spectacular,it sounds normal. It gets the job done.

What I want is the triplet that sounds like a Sheet of Sound that is twice as fast. The kind you hear when a dancer walks out and the triplet rasgueado is so fast it sound like continuous sound. I think this is because it's a double triplet figure. Two rotations per beat. If that is possible I want that.

Using the clock on the wall and being tired and groggy I can easily do three triplets per beat at 60 BPM, I think four triplets per beat would sound better.

Ok I can do four triplets per beat at 60 BPM, DOG tired and ready for bed. Maybe I need to do five triplets per beat at 60 BPM.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 15 2015 13:51:04
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13344
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From: Washington DC

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I think of the metronome as a tool to make ones beats even and measured out. Maybe with picado it helps to go fast.

This is a plain speed issue, some mechanical thing I have to figure out. My technique is not sloppy or out of control, just not as fast as I would like.

I think it has to do with changing a triplet figure into a double triplet. Normally one beat is one rasgueado triplet so for a slower palo where the BPM is lower it's fairly easy to work to hit one triplet per beat. But say you want to do a intro to Solea for a dancer and they ask for a slow tempo, like they often do, getting a triplet to go with a slow tempo is not a big deal, it also does not sound spectacular,it sounds normal. It gets the job done.

What I want is the triplet that sounds like a Sheet of Sound that is twice as fast. The kind you hear when a dancer walks out and the triplet rasgueado is so fast it sound like continuous sound. I think this is because it's a double triplet figure. Two rotations per beat. If that is possible I want that.

Using the clock on the wall and being tired and groggy I can easily do three triplets per beat at 60 BPM, I think four triplets per beat would sound better.

Ok I can do four triplets per beat at 60 BPM, DOG tired and ready for bed. Maybe I need to do five triplets per beat at 60 BPM.

You contradicted yourself .... It is all about metronome and subdivision. Think 4 strokes per beat. That is 16 notes per second (32nd notes) at 120bpm but start slower please to be clean. Once you can do it at 120+ drop metronome in half and play same speed (64th notes).

Check me out at :05....that's a comfy 115 BPM 32nd notes but w 3 note marote. At :20 by contrast it's 24th notes (16th triplets) just up and down w wrist. In terms of wrist both techniques feel about same speed in terms of energy use
http://youtu.be/M_CY5r7AGaE

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 15 2015 16:39:00
 
keith

Posts: 1108
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From: Land of Daniel Boone

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana

Stephen, I wonder if doing the motion with light weights or a thera-band will help build up speed and flexibility?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 15 2015 17:44:45
 
Blondie#2

 

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
You contradicted yourself .... It is all about metronome and subdivision. Think 4 strokes per beat. That is 16 notes per second at 120bpm but start slower please to be clean. Once you can do it at 120+ drop metronome in half and play same speed (64th notes).


Lost me there - I get the thinking in fours bit, but with 4 strokes of a triplet rasgueado per beat (eg PMPP) and metronome at 120bpm I am playing 8 strokes/notes per second, not 16?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 15 2015 18:10:42
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Blondie#2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blondie#2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
You contradicted yourself .... It is all about metronome and subdivision. Think 4 strokes per beat. That is 16 notes per second at 120bpm but start slower please to be clean. Once you can do it at 120+ drop metronome in half and play same speed (64th notes).


Lost me there - I get the thinking in fours bit, but with 4 strokes of a triplet rasgueado per beat (eg PMPP) and metronome at 120bpm I am playing 8 strokes/notes per second, not 16?



32nd notes brother not 16th notes.... For 24th notes you got 12 per second. .... 4 per beat yes you are right but that is slow to understand rhythm concept not for high speeds. I could have said 8 per beat to be less confusing I guess (edited my other post)...He wanted speed after all and not tempo speed but extra division...

Pampp - amppam = beat one
Ppamp- pampp = beat two

Which collectively = one second of time at 120bpm.... I just keep it going indefinitely till I want to stop... I had hoped the video made it clear

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 15 2015 19:50:30
 
Miguel de Maria

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From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Ricardo

WTF, how is this going to help Stephen rotate his wrist more quickly!? :)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 15 2015 20:01:43
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

WTF, how is this going to help Stephen rotate his wrist more quickly!? :)

Slow
With
METRONOME

Point being ... If you can do 24th notes just up and down strokes at tempo x then the faster sounding marote grouped in 8 (4+4) is just as doable

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 15 2015 20:07:47
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Slow
With
METRONOME


Yeah, if it's not doing an even "tak tak tak" with the metronome, it's not going to do it with anything.

It doesn't have to be a "real metronome", anything that keeps a steady beat will do the trick... and if you can only get it right with some naturally uneven source, then you're off.


Simple and nice for this kind of practice:

https://www.metronomeonline.com/

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 15 2015 20:14:59
 
Miguel de Maria

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Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Sr. Martins

I gotcha, Ricardo. Funny to have to tell a 50something dude to slow down :)

My current weapon of choice:

http://www.korg.com/us/products/tuners/kdm_2/

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 15 2015 20:26:17
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

I gotcha, Ricardo. Funny to have to tell a 50something dude to slow down :)

My current weapon of choice:

http://www.korg.com/us/products/tuners/kdm_2/

He already said he is too slow... By slow I mean he can just start at his max speed ability ... But Change his subdivision concept such that the beat is slower .... From there he can increase the tempo little by little and along with it will come any "fast" technical things ... I promise.

Later on he can slow down say Alegrias a bit from his normal comfort and execute a double time triplet marote ... And again increase gradually. Here I do some example of that stuff at speed to get idea:

http://youtu.be/C4jjKP3LZ1c

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 15 2015 20:31:58
 
Miguel de Maria

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From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Ricardo

Hmmm, do you work this way in picado too?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 15 2015 20:54:32
 
estebanana

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana

So Ricardo what you are saying is make the BPM slow enough to pack in the amount of notes per beat I want to accomplish and then increase metronome speed until it sounds like the texture, meaning notes per beatI want?

I never thought the metronome would help with that but I'll try it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2015 0:00:03
 
pink

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana

Be sure to wear the appropriate safety wear too!!


Best

pink

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2015 0:07:38
 
estebanana

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to pink

quote:

Be sure to wear the appropriate safety wear too!!


Best

pink


Eye protection to screen out flying fingernail shards.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2015 0:20:59
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I never thought the metronome would help with that but I'll try it.


It's funny because I never understood why so much people dismiss the metronome or other time keeping devices. It gives you the pulse, can give you subdivisions... that's the basis of music unless you're playing free stuff all the time.

To keep a steady beat, nothing better than a machine.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2015 0:23:25
 
estebanana

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana

quote:

It's funny because I never understood why so much people dismiss the metronome or other time keeping devices. It gives you the pulse, can give you subdivisions... that's the basis of music unless you're playing free stuff all the time.

To keep a steady beat, nothing better than a machine.

_____________________________


It's not a question of steady beat, ( my original question) but how to attain more speed. At a certain point your hand will only go so fast mechanically or structurally. My question began asking how to get the body moving faster not how to make steady beat divisions.

Now if Ricardo says using the metronome in the way he suggested will increase hand speed I will try it but it seems odd to me because I can shove tons of notes into abeat a low tempos, making fit at higher tempos has been difficult.


Here is an example of the speed and notes per beat at this tempo I'd like to achieve - the first few seconds of this sample.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=279690&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2015 0:33:41
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana

quote:

It's not a question of steady beat, ( my original question) but how to attain more speed. At a certain point your hand will only go so fast mechanically or structurally. My question began asking how to get the body moving faster not how to make steady beat divisions.


As I see it, the whole question IS the steady beat because your success at achieving higher speeds is measured by how regular is your triplet subdivision.

For instance, if it's all fine at 100bpm and it starts sounding like "tak tak bonk tak tak bonk" at 110bpm, it's not more hand/wrist speed that you're needing... it's the balance and coordination.


Speed is useless if you lose the even triplet subdivision.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2015 0:51:54
 
estebanana

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana

Today my metronome wall playing continuous triplets without fatigue and clean articulation:



BPM - triplets per beat

205 one triplet figure

115 two triplet

70 four triplet

60 five triplet

50 six triplet

40 eight triplet


I'll see how much it improves with a regular metronome session of 15 minutes to 20 minutes.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2015 4:08:58
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Today my metronome wall playing continuous triplets without fatigue and clean articulation:



BPM - triplets per beat

205 one triplet figure

115 two triplet

70 four triplet

60 five triplet

50 six triplet

40 eight triplet


I'll see how much it improves with a regular metronome session of 15 minutes to 20 minutes.

Doesnt make sense man. How can you do 6 notes per beat at 115bpm but only 3 at 205bpm? Hope you see the math discrepancy here... At 70 you meant three I'm sure ... Etc... Subdivision

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2015 4:22:55
 
estebanana

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana

Well I started with the metronome on 40 BMP and I tried to see how many individual three note triplet rasgeuados I could fit in one beat. Barely 8 triplets.

3x8=24 notes per beat at 40 BPM

I moved the speed to 50 BPM and I was able to fit six complete rotations 3x6=18 notes

etc.
at 60 BPM I got five triplet figures per beat 3x5=15 notes per beat

The rest I have to double check....I might have it wrong from memory because the computer and the guitar were several blocks away and all the fishermen offering me free beers along the way may have distorted my ability to count in English. I'll write it down this time, Mr Miyagi sensei.

*triplet on -triplet off, triplet on- triplet off*

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2015 5:06:30
 
estebanana

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:

For instance, if it's all fine at 100bpm and it starts sounding like "tak tak bonk tak tak bonk" at 110bpm, it's not more hand/wrist speed that you're needing... it's the balance and coordination.


Mine sounds like 'taketa taketa taketa taketa taketa taketa....

except the first note I noticed stress so it goes T-aketa taketa taketa taketa taketa T-aketa taketa taketa taketa

Glad I caught that because involuntary accenting on the first stroke is not as musically desirable as control of where to place a stress. Once I heard the involuntary accenting I was doing I dailed it down until I could control the accent. That involuntary accenting is a bad habit.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2015 5:12:33
 
Blondie#2

 

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
32nd notes brother not 16th notes.... For 24th notes you got 12 per second. .... 4 per beat yes you are right but that is slow to understand rhythm concept not for high speeds. I could have said 8 per beat to be less confusing I guess (edited my other post)...He wanted speed after all and not tempo speed but extra division...

Pampp - amppam = beat one
Ppamp- pampp = beat two


Right, thanks.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2015 7:25:38
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Well I started with the metronome on 40 BMP and I tried to see how many individual three note triplet rasgeuados I could fit in one beat.


You're not going anywhere with that "individual triplet" as a benchmark. I'm sorry but what you want to achieve is very different from doing only one triplet rasgueo at a specified bpm.

I don't see how your bpm chart is going to help with anything. You're thinking about how many triplet groups you can cram into a beat instead of working the triplet itself.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2015 12:20:46
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