top/braces tuning for equal string volume

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kominak

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 20 2010

top/braces tuning for equal string v...

Hello,

on my 1st build, which I've been playing for the last 2 years i noticed the high e string is noticeably louder than other strings. It is less noticeable with dry LaBella 820 strings, but as soon as I put D'addarios or other regular strings on, it's very obvious. It's even there when the string is fretted, so it's not some single frequency that gets amplified when "e" note is being played.

When the e string is being played, the top resonates very strongly slightly below the bridge at the treble side of the lower bout.

Could it have something to do with bracing pattern I used? I followed Lewis/Barbero plan with 7 fans and closing struts. While he comments the traditional fan struts to be 4mm wide x 5mm high in his adapted bracing he uses 7th(treble) fan over 7mm high, the closing treble strut even 13mm high.
It's the point where these 2 braces meet where the top resonates most when playing e string.
I might be totally wrong, but could it be possible that if i lowered the tension of the top in that place (by shawing the height of the braces) the strings would be better balanced?

Please advise me...

Thanks a lot!
Martin

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Martin Kominak
Slovakia

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2015 13:18:33

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: top/braces tuning for equal stri... (in reply to kominak)

The biggest problem with the Lewis/Barbero plan is that it contains 2 plans i one, which is confusing.
The Barbero in this plan is pretty good.
I havent built the Lewis "version", but just looking at the plan shows me that it has absolutely nothing to do with Barbero. But nothing besides using the same plantilla. Its a very extreme design with respect of bracing layout and bracing thickness. It may have worked for Lewis (dont know him) but my advice is to stay clear of it untill you have built many guitars.
Especially on the first many guitars, its a huge advantage to build something pretty straight forward and traditional in order to understand just a tiny bit of what is going on and having a background for develloping further on.

Since the design you built is the way it is, i doubt that anyone (besides maybe Lewis) can tell you what to do. The dimensions you give are very extreme and IMHO have nothing to do with a flamenco guitar.
The choice is to take down the height of the braces to "normal". But shaving closing struts without taking the back of is almost impossible unless you have VERY thin arms. I´m skinny, but I cant reach down to the endblock and many persons have problems reaching below the bridge.
The second option is to leave it and build another using the Barbero version of this plan. That is a very good starting point for building flamenco guitars and I personally consider it to be a better plan than the other Barbero plan. Especially if you want to understand how the Torres idea funcion.

Sorry I couldnt be of more help, but I prefer saying the things the way I see them and not go into some cerebral game.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 10 2015 7:08:32

kominak

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 20 2010

RE: top/braces tuning for equal stri... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Thank you Anders, this really helped me a lot - exactly what I needed to hear to understand things better.
I decided to try shaving braces to normal height to see what will happen. I have 2 more flamenco plans (Barbero and Santos) from Roy Courtnall and both plans call for 6mm wide x 3-4mm high braces (closing struts being 2.5mm in Barbero plan).
So I think (as all my braces/struts are 4mm wide) height of about 5mm will put me in the ballpark? Or would it be beneficial to lower the height of closing struts even more?

Thanks once again...

Edit:
It looks like my girlishly thin arms are up to the task - I can barely touch the closing struts.
After 45minutes with sandpaper on stick I can see why people invented finger planes :)

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Martin Kominak
Slovakia

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2015 20:11:56

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: top/braces tuning for equal stri... (in reply to kominak)

Martin
You´ll never reach 5mm with sandpaper, you will have serious finger injuries before.
Yes, fingerplanes is the way and thats why its called shaving the braces and not sanding the braces.

Remember that the different heights that you refer to are almost always with a triangular shake, so if you make the braces 5mm high AND square, they will be way to strong IMHO.

But the broblem is that you are changing a design, so you are basically all on your own and references dont help much.
I like a good strong hight e-string, but when it gets to strong, its very annoying,

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 7:36:06

kominak

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 20 2010

RE: top/braces tuning for equal stri... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I was able to bring down the closing strut to 5mm with 40grit sandpaper glued to the stick. Luckily I was able to shave fan braces with small Kunz pocket plane using push and pull strokes, it was much easier. After reaching 5mm I rounded the edges a bit, but it's still far from traditional triangular or bullet shape. Just for the fun I weighed the amount of wood I removed from braces - total of about 2.5gramms.

I'm glad to report that it worked! The difference is very obvious - not only the e string behaves much better, but the overall attack is sharper and guitar responds much better. Funny thing is I have a feeling the pulsation of the guitar got stiffer (which I like), but I can't understand how is it possible when I removed wood from braces (thus making the top less stiff)? Maybe it's just a placebo effect caused by better response of the guitar.

I'll try to play it for a while and then maybe shape the braces some more.
Thank you, Anders, your advice helped me a lot!

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Martin Kominak
Slovakia

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 9:58:43

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: top/braces tuning for equal stri... (in reply to kominak)

Now thats good. few things in the world is better than noticing something works after doing hard work
Build the next one with another bracing system.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 14 2015 16:29:55

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2015 5:01:49

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: top/braces tuning for equal stri... (in reply to kominak)

Encanto
your question has been answered in this very thread. Yes,, like everything, it changes the sound. Exactly what and how much is close to impossible to say. 99.9% of these designs are the way they are because the inicial builder/designer found that it worked best that way.
There will be someone with the "correct theoretical answer", but they often dont apply to reality. A good example is the slanted lower harmonic bar, which in theory is supposed to make the trebles of the guitar stronger. But in reality, most of the builders that I have asked (and it includes myself) and whos has built with a slanted lower harmonic bar, says that it makes the basses stronger. Choose yourself what you believe.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2015 8:00:18

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 21 2015 0:18:22

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: top/braces tuning for equal stri... (in reply to kominak)

The documentary is 10 years old and I havent used a slanted lower harmonic bar for some 9 years or so. Not that I think its bad, I just prefer to build differently now.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 21 2015 8:13:29

kominak

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 20 2010

RE: top/braces tuning for equal stri... (in reply to kominak)

I have one more question.
Does the stiffness of the sides/lining affect how light the top bracing can be? Can it be expected that using solid lining and/or thicker sides will provide better support for the top and thus lighter bracing will be enough(regardless of whether the resulting sound will be flamenco-ish)?

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Martin Kominak
Slovakia

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 22 2015 12:11:37