tuner becoming stiff

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Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

tuner becoming stiff

Hi, so I am noticing the low E string tuner getting stiff and harder to turn. I am not quite sure when this started, but it has gotten to the point to be quite annoying, especially at gigs. I don't know the brand of tuner; it's whatever a Cordoba FCWE comes with. Besides it just generally being hard to turn, it is releasing gold-colored particles. Been playing this guitar since 2006. Any ideas?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2015 17:59:45

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Can you provide a photo of the tuner?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2015 18:11:37

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to jshelton5040)

Thanks, John. Try this:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0U42G_4yqQNTGVHa19BaEo4Sk0/view?usp=sharing

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2015 20:15:22

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Actually Miguel, I should have been more clear. I would like a photo of the entire tuner to see if I could recognize the brand. There is obviously a mis-alignment of the gear and the worm that's causing your problem. Probably best to just replace these with new tuners.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2015 14:01:42

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to jshelton5040)

John, the bracket welded to the plate looks to me like Van Gent. Cordoba advertised many levels of guitars with Van Gent tuners back in the era of Miguel's guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2015 15:13:42

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to keith)

quote:

ORIGINAL: keith

John, the bracket welded to the plate looks to me like Van Gent. Cordoba advertised many levels of guitars with Van Gent tuners back in the era of Miguel's guitar.

I'll take your word for it Keith I'm sure you've seen many more tuners than I have. I was hoping they were the same brand I'm using so I could offer Miguel a great price but the rollers are probably a different diameter.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2015 18:07:28

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Any advice as to how to get these replaced? There is a shortage of classical/flamenco luthiers here in Arizona, so the more info I have, the better when I take it to the tech.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2015 16:34:07

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Miguel, tuners are pretty easy to replace. One can get fairly good and inexpensive tuners at Ebay or you can go to Stew-Mac, Luthier Music or Luthier Mercantile. Pull out the old tuners, line up the new tuners and determine if you need new holes and if you need to plug old holes. Toothpicks and superglue work well to plug holes so the new screws have good wood to grab onto. Plug the hole and cut off the part sticking out and then push in any wood protruding. Pilot holes are easy--you can use a push pin or a drill bit with tape as a "stopper". Use a 1/16 drill bit. Most tuners are 35mm between each roller.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2015 17:33:36

ngiorgio

Posts: 168
Joined: Nov. 1 2005
From: Florida, USA

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to keith)

As mentioned, the machine heads look to me to be Van Gent. I have replaced a number of sets on Cordoba guitars and they have all had 10 mm rollers. One guitar made by Prudencio Saez had 9mm rollers and I had to open them up a bit with a dowel wrapped with sandpaper.

DerJung tuners such as these are widely available and pretty much drop right in. http://www.ebay.com/itm/390984156331?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Everything else as Keith just wrote is what I do when changing out a set. However I don't like using a drill bit as it can be way to easy to drill through the sides of the headstock. For a first time install, I'd recommend the push pin to make the pilot hole. Here's a USA seller who stocks Der Jung machines.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Classical-Flamenco-Guitar-Machine-Heads-Tuners-Pegs-Gold-Black-DJ203GK-New-/281696576950?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41966ca5b6

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2015 22:26:20

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

On a side note:

For making small holes I have a couple of antique these in my tool box.

It seems such to be still available today, and I like them a lot for quick jobs.
Especially for small holes in connifer woods, which to my experience is potentially prone to cracking when pushed. (For the dimensions and laminated piece discussed here, cracking is very likely not to occure, but I prefer to not risk it nonetheless.)

Anyway, I find these kind of good ol´hand drills to be handy in general.
( Also have one of these which I like too:

)

Ruphus

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2015 10:03:56

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Baby oil on q tip dude...this happens to every guitar I ever owned and changed strings often. No need to change whole set LOL!!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2015 20:30:45

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Baby oil on q tip dude...this happens to every guitar I ever owned and changed strings often. No need to change whole set LOL!!!

No amount of oil, vaseline or graphite will help those tuners. The worm and gear are misaligned and will continue to degrade. Just put on new tuners. Miguel doesn't need to waste money on high end tuners just a set of Gotoh's will probably last the life of the guitar. If I knew the size of his rollers and spacing I'd sell him a new set of good quality tuners for $30...this hardly breaks the bank.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2015 22:57:23

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to jshelton5040)

From pic their dry as a bone and black coating is worn through to the silver color..... Where did all that black crud go? The black screw in gear center could be loose as well and could improve alignment. I have fixed totally frozen machines that way and he says it still works as of now but getting worse so, I consider its worth a try.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2015 3:40:08

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

From pic their dry as a bone and black coating is worn through to the silver color..... Where did all that black crud go? The black screw in gear center could be loose as well and could improve alignment. I have fixed totally frozen machines that way and he says it still works as of now but getting worse so, I consider its worth a try.

The black coating is just an oxide or anodizing to keep it from rusting. It's so thin that when it wears off it would never show as anything other than a microscopic dust. I'm well aware that the screw holding the gear can become loose and affect the function of the tuner but in this case I see extreme wear on the gear itself which indicates mis-alignment. No amount of lubricant will fix it. I don't believe in lubricating tuners since I've never observed improvement as a result of lubrication. Maybe if they were spinning at high speed they would benefit from lubrication to reduce friction and heat but that simply doesn't apply here.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2015 22:19:06

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

From pic their dry as a bone and black coating is worn through to the silver color..... Where did all that black crud go? The black screw in gear center could be loose as well and could improve alignment. I have fixed totally frozen machines that way and he says it still works as of now but getting worse so, I consider its worth a try.

The black coating is just an oxide or anodizing to keep it from rusting. It's so thin that when it wears off it would never show as anything other than a microscopic dust. I'm well aware that the screw holding the gear can become loose and affect the function of the tuner but in this case I see extreme wear on the gear itself which indicates mis-alignment. No amount of lubricant will fix it. I don't believe in lubricating tuners since I've never observed improvement as a result of lubrication. Maybe if they were spinning at high speed they would benefit from lubrication to reduce friction and heat but that simply doesn't apply here.

Odd to me as I have found 100% improvement (baby oil on Q tip) in every stiff set I ever encountered including one set of gohtoh that was frozen stiff like the tin man in wizard of oz

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2015 22:11:37

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I had a gear get really stiff on my set of gotoh tuners, turned out to be the screw that holds the button on needed backing off.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 26 2015 17:07:01

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Me just had the opposite with Gotohs. The screws had gotten loose and the knobs were all clattering.

A silly construction to have the same screws hold buttons in place and tighten the worm shaft in the same time. Users not aware of it will be locking the gear.

Probably best to glue the buttons tight with some some easy going glue like Uhu or so, so that you can have the gear running smooth.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 26 2015 17:59:04

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

the teeth of the gear shown in miguel's photo look chewed up and one tooth looks really chewed up. the teeth also look as if they do not fit well in the worm. this will only get worse with every twist. john was nice enough to offer a good set of tuners for $30 and it might be prudent to go that route.

here is a new gotoh gear

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 26 2015 19:36:42

keith

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 26 2015 19:53:06

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

John is right, that top gear against the worm gear, cross threading.

Van Craps. Get yourself a set of Gotohs. Or have John send you his brand.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 27 2015 13:38:36

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Van Craps. Get yourself a set of Gotohs. Or have John send you his brand.

I would happily sell Miguel a set of tuners if I thought our brand would fit. Unfortunately most tuners have larger rollers than ours and all the sets I have in stock have lyres so they would probably be too long anyway. Gotoh's seem the best choice since they make a very similar style tuner.

Miguel can easily intall new tuners by himself. All it normally takes is an awl and screwdriver. I never drill pilot holes for tuner screws, just punch a hole with the awl and touch the screw with your tongue before inserting it. This is enough lubricant to make the screw slide in like butter.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 27 2015 14:02:02

dartemo1

Posts: 76
Joined: Apr. 21 2010

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Hi,

As a quick fix you can try to unscrew the damaged gear, reverse it, and screw it back with an approximately 1/10" washer. Have done it for old bicycle cogs.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 27 2015 21:16:53

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to dartemo1)

quote:

Hi,

As a quick fix you can try to unscrew the damaged gear, reverse it, and screw it back with an approximately 1/10" washer. Have done it for old bicycle cogs

There not enough room for a washer on a tuner plate. It would elevate the flat gear above the worm gear.

The barrel shaft hole in the plate and the bracket that holds the worm gear and tuner grip shaft can be pressed together out of true on inexpensive gears. It's common for them to work for a while when brand new and then work further out of alignment due to wear or twisting.

Fooling around with them is almost always fruitless and costs more in time than replacing them.

I isolated the part of Miguel's tuner that is failing. Let's look at the gears forensically and mechanically:

The flat gear on top of the barrel shaft has been worn by the worm gear. The teeth of the flat gear are pocked and scraped. Quite deeply, one gear is harder metal then the other too. The Worm gear is also scraped but only on one side. This indicates the the two gears are engaging in a lopsided manner. Wearing on on one end of the worm gear.

If the flat gear were not screwed in tight the and was wobbling this could occur also, but it is less likely the teeth of the gear would show so much wear; It takes the force of being compressed together for the gears to cut into each others teeth. I surmise by the amount of wear ( by photo evidence ) that screws are not loose and allowing mis-alignment.

So that is what I see then I look at tuner plates and gears with my magnifiers on.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2015 2:06:28

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Guys, I'm sorry I haven't been participating in this thread. I recently came down with a somewhat nasty case of Hand, Foot, and Mouth disease. This is one of those things that kids get and often barely notice, but hits their parents like a ton of bricks. It started off with a cold-like fever, shivers, etc, feeling poorly, then--my hands started to get stiff and got some bumps on them. At first, I thought it was a bunch of mosquito bites--like perhaps 20 on each hand. Mostly concentrating on my middle fingers. Then, the next day, there were more bumps and they started to get bigger and nastier. Almost all of my hand had the sores now. They looked awful. Puzzlingly, there were also some on the sores of my feet. The bumps made my hands stiff and achy, but even worse--itchy as all hell! it was driving me mad. The only thing that helped was keeping around ice packs. It didn't help that I had gigs on Saturday, Sunday, Monday and Tuesday during this period. By Thursday, the sores were healing up and the hand was noticeably less stiff. I had two gigs today and it went okay. The hands don't hurt and are not stiff; however, weirdly, the fingertips and especially the thumb tips are very insensitive as if they were covered with dried superglue. It made playing somewhat difficult, but I managed.

Whatever you do, don't get Hand, Foot and Mouth disease! I have read accounts on the internet that make my case seem mild indeed!

I am going to try a drop of oil as Ricardo suggested, and after that will just look for some replacement tuners. It probably wouldn't be a good idea for me to replace them myself though, I'm pretty bad at tech stuff.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2015 3:59:26

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I hope you feel better fast. That HFM stuff sounds unpleasant.

Of course it's much better than Hand, Mouth, Foot and Ass disease.

In addition to playing discomfort and terrible puffy welts you have been standing and playing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2015 5:47:48

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Hey Miguel,

That sounds terrible! Even if you seem reconvalescent, make sure to see the doc to prevent eventual long term consequences.

Apart of ungulates hoof- and mouth disease I hadn´t heard of something similar on humans so far. But these days with all the odiousness in farming on behalf of excessive profiteering it shouldn´t wonder if another disease had become zoonotic.

There are besides being horrible arrays of incurable infectious diseases on the way. Brought up entirely needlessly by reckless methods of raking in.
The scenes of infirmity will likely be superceding historical epidemies, and the devastating conflict for the survivors will be to understand that the mass dying is needed.

Again, all brought up needlessly by sick conditions that we are standing by at or even embracing.
Sorry for going a bit astray. Anyway, all the best and complete recovery to you, Miguel!

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2015 9:54:18

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Whatever you do, don't get Hand, Foot and Mouth disease! I have read accounts on the internet that make my case seem mild indeed!

I am going to try a drop of oil as Ricardo suggested, and after that will just look for some replacement tuners. It probably wouldn't be a good idea for me to replace them myself though, I'm pretty bad at tech stuff.

Man, that sucks about the HF&M disease. Hope you feel better soon man.

You said that there are no flamenco luthiers where you are. If you are looking for a luthier, I don't know how close Jason Kostal is to you but he's based in Phoenix, Arizona (or was) and he's regarded to be one of the best steel string luthiers in the world. If you could get him to repair your guitar it would be in good hands.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2015 10:58:01

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to tijeretamiel)

Thanks for the tip, I wasn't aware of that guy. Wow, his guitars go for $14K to start. He lives in Queen Creek, which is an area that until recently was mostly rural horse properties, but nowadays is full to the brim with new subdivisions.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 29 2015 19:38:06

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Guys have any insight on these tuners? Worth it or better to just get some Gotohs from Stew-Mac?

https://www.cordobaguitars.com/products.php?categoryid=16

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2015 21:43:53

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: tuner becoming stiff (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Guys have any insight on these tuners? Worth it or better to just get some Gotohs from Stew-Mac?

https://www.cordobaguitars.com/products.php?categoryid=16

The $49 set looks ok, the cheaper one is junk. I'd spend a little extra for the Gotohs which are much better quality than either of these.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2015 21:51:10