Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
There is a part in the documentary where Paco says he doesn't believe in geniuses. He is more of a believer in hard work and talent. I just wanted to know what you guys think about that. Thanks....
There is an old saying that success consists of ten percent inspiration and 90 percent perspiration. I think that's what Paco meant, and I would agree with him.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Hmmm....If you take 100 people and have them all practising an art, craft or sport for 8 hours a day for 10 years , most will reach a professional level and one will end up excelling way better than others. I think a genius doesnt need so much time to gain the same result that a non genius needs with simple hard work.
Saying that, no matter if you are a genius or not, there is no replacement for tenacity, practise, study and hard work in whatever you decide to do.
Posts: 1812
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)
RE: La Busqueda Documentary (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
There is an old saying that success consists of ten percent inspiration and 90 percent perspiration. I think that's what Paco meant, and I would agree with him.
So Ramón wasn’t the greatest guitarist of the last 50 years simply because he didn't work as hard as Paco. Right.
And the same with Sabicas’s brother Diego, no doubt.
because in the other doc he quotes stravinsky saying that great artists borrow from each other their creative ideas, and the real "geniuses" (implying himself) simply steal material outright.
My feeling is that a genius is simpley an INSPIRED person that inspires others. Timing is important. There are lots of "genius" moments in the lives of artists and even scientists. Einstein went through such a period of his life, but the inspiration did not last obviously. Still, we consider him a "genius" if not the archetype. Some one like PDL seemed to be inspired throughout his career which is rare for sure.
For sure Ricardo... Thanks for chiming in... There are so many great flamenco guitarists/composers but when you hear "Mi Nino Curro", "La Barrosa", etc.... Damn, it's musically and technically perfect. Alright, I just had to let that off my chest.
Dont forget that most geniuses underestimate their talent. They just see everyone else as slow. Bach said "...all one has to do is hit the right notes at the right time and the instrument plays itself" Fernando Sors "Andante Largo" which is pretty tricky comes from opus 5. "six very easy little pieces" Gerardo Nuñez always told his advanced class before teaching launching into high speed improvised 3 finger picados "sin embargo la tecnica es muy facil, la mano derecha siempre igual" ( non the less the technique is very easy, the right hand always does the same)
Paco pretty much reinvented a musical form single handedly and as we can see from his discography, produced a body of work comparable to any of the great composers. What he probably saw as an obvious evolution of hard work and dedication was what everyone else perceives as genius.
Posts: 3496
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: La Busqueda Documentary (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
quote:
So Ramón wasn’t the greatest guitarist of the last 50 years simply because he didn't work as hard as Paco. Right.
No, I'm sure that Ramon worked as hard as Paco. But art and music evolve, and flamenco had not evolved in Ramon's time to the extent that it had by Paco's time. Paco did not create his style and work out of thin air, using the musical equivalent of "thought experiments," as Einstein, for example, did in developing his theories. Paco built his ouvre over time on the precedents set by his predecessors, Ramon, Nino Ricardo, and Sabicas.
What Paco did was extend the possibilities of flamenco. No question. And he set precedents himself. But was Paco any more a genius in his time and place (and I emphasize "genius" because that's what this thread is addressing) than Ramon or Sabicas were in their times and places? I know there will be different thoughts on this, but I think it is a question worthy of debate.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Half of Genius is knowing which stuff to steal- The other half is having put in the time practicing to know how to play back the stolen stuff to make it sound new.
Stravinsky took Rimsky-Korsakov late work and turned it inside out and then he got 'Le Sacre'.
Posts: 15714
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: La Busqueda Documentary (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
No, I'm sure that Ramon worked as hard as Paco. But art and music evolve, and flamenco had not evolved in Ramon's time to the extent that it had by Paco's time. Paco did not create his style and work out of thin air, using the musical equivalent of "thought experiments," as Einstein, for example, did in developing his theories. Paco built his ouvre over time on the precedents set by his predecessors, Ramon, Nino Ricardo, and Sabicas.
Actually, in the way Einstein followed logic from learning about Maxwell equations and others, yes Paco had the same type of genius creative moments in his early career that carried forward from what he had learned till then. Ramon taught paco what he had learned from nino ricardo...then Paco took off doing his own things and inspired generations afterward. In the case of both einstein and paco...sure someone else probably would have come along and made the same "discoveries" but as it turned out it fell on their shoulders being in the right place at the right time. In the same way some folks don't "get" Einstein or want to find an alternative to his theories, many people don't "get" paco's music since it evolved and found new directions. But you can't take away the "genius" of either one.
Bill, are you comparing Ramon Montoya and Paco de Lucia (two great flamenco figures) or Ramon de Algeciras and Paco de Lucia (brothers, one an average pro and one a great flamenco figure)? Thinking there might be some miscommunication going on here.
Bill, are you comparing Ramon Montoya and Paco de Lucia (two great flamenco figures) or Ramon de Algeciras and Paco de Lucia (brothers, one an average pro and one a great flamenco figure)? Thinking there might be some miscommunication going on here.
Miguel,
Thanks for noting that. I definitely was comparing Ramon Montoya and the state of flamenco during his era with Paco de Lucia and the state of flamenco during his era. That's what I meant when I stated that flamenco had not evolved in Ramon's era to the extent it had evolved in Paco's era. I was trying to make the point that Paco had a much greater base to build upon and to extend flamenco and set precedents, a base that was unavailable during Ramon's era. Thus, my rhetorical question: Can we really say that Paco was a "genius" and Ramon was not? I think it is a question worthy of debate.
Thanks for bringing this up, Miguel. We may have been talking past each other here, at least where my post is concerned. Sorry if I have confused the issue.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Ramon taught paco what he had learned from nino ricardo..
Ricardo, please see my response to Miguel's excellent observation. Miguel is correct in noting that I should have stated clearly I was referring to Ramon Montoya. Sorry about the confusion.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: La Busqueda Documentary (in reply to BarkellWH)
That confused me too. However I would say that I think it is unfair to call Ramon de Algeciras an "average pro". Ramon de Algeciras was one of the most recorded accompanist players of his day along with Paco Cepero and Manolo Sanlucar. Much of the material on Pacos first recordings was based on Falsetas and exercises that Ramon taught Paco. If it wasnt for the fact that Ramon (and everyone else) fell into the shadow of Pacos enormous talent he would have been known as one of the worlds best players.
Posts: 15714
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: La Busqueda Documentary (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
Ramon taught paco what he had learned from nino ricardo..
Ricardo, please see my response to Miguel's excellent observation. Miguel is correct in noting that I should have stated clearly I was referring to Ramon Montoya. Sorry about the confusion.
Cheers,
Bill
In that sense you are correct....and I personally have felt for many years now that the two stand as the two most important pillars in the history of flamenco guitar. I can separate their importance and influence from other players I simply "like" and enjoy as much or more than them depending on my mood and taste... as I see it, flamenco guitar would be completely different without either one of these guys.
RE: La Busqueda Documentary (in reply to Pimientito)
quote:
"sin embargo la tecnica es muy facil, la mano derecha siempre igual" ( non the less the technique is very easy, the right hand always does the same)
I remember Paco saying in an interview the left hand is the intelligent one. It's the one that creates. Ahhh, I found it. It's at the very beginning...
"sin embargo la tecnica es muy facil, la mano derecha siempre igual" ( non the less the technique is very easy, the right hand always does the same)
I remember Paco saying in an interview the left hand is the intelligent one. It's the one that creates. Ahhh, I found it. It's at the very beginning...
He was making a cute political statement and later got his butt kicked on the street by a gang of right wingers that took offense to his little joke.
Can't believe I finally got round to watching this. Wow.. Awesome !
It gave me more questions than answers.
Aside from incredible playing, left right joke etc, it was so great to watch him, fiddling round with audio gear and sat at the computer editing tracks... Did he really record and produce some material in his house like that, at one point you could just see a mic over the sofa ?
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread