RE: Eventual end of guitars structural intonation issue

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Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

The problem being, sweetening one side of the spectrum sours the other end as in Bach's day.

Is this about intonation or temperament?

A theoretically perfect 12TET guitar should provide "0 cent deviation" all over the fretboard, if it doesn't, then it's just a regular guitar as we know and love.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 16:48:03

Ruphus

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Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

A theoretically perfect 12TET guitar should provide "0 cent deviation" all over the fretboard, if it doesn't, then it's just a regular guitar as we know and love.

This not about a theoretically perfect, but about relative improvement.

Ricardo,

I felt as if the guitars were well intonating and tuned. The number of imperfect sounding notes to me appeared as if it was from fingering.
I think the player does a really fine job, and is fretting specially well barré, but some notes seem to be too strongly pushed down by fingertips. And supposing the Allbeniz piece to contain difficult and fast changing chords, it might be too much of a challenge to fret perfectly throughout, like so often.
There, besides, also seem some overdone accentuations with the right hand, eventhough his arps and all are very nice and full sounding overall.

Having said that, it is my impression, but I could be wrong (about the left hand caused slightly off notes).

Anyway, players´ imperfection belongs to the game. (Otherwise we would be listening to midi sampler pieces.)

Ruphus

PS:
You are right. The most obvious demo would be comparing same player with other guitars.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 17:16:00

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus)

So..

Does that mean that you hear all those benefits from improved tuning even though you're hearing it out of tune?

This is like nerding over 0,5 cent deviations but not wanting to care for eventual 2 cent deviations caused by the player. Fun stuff.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 17:27:54

Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

I felt as if the guitars were well intonating and tuned. The number of imperfect sounding notes to me appeared as if it was from fingering.

Well...EXACTLY AMIGO!!!! And it's what myself and Rui been arguing about all along regarding the arbitrariness of a special compensation design in first place.

But after all, my point was that we have same player intonating perfect in one example, and not in the other. So I WANT to give the player the benefit of the doubt...but you are correct it could be the music difficulty between the two pieces revealing the player shortcoming NOT the instrument design flaw.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 17:33:48

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Well...EXACTLY AMIGO!!!! And it's what myself and Rui been arguing about all along regarding the arbitrariness of a special compensation design in first place.

The inaccuracy through fingering does in no way boil down to that there was no use in enhanced accuracy of the instrument.

Same player + better intonating guitar = better sounding performance (and better sounding instrument overall)

Same player + worse intonating guitar = worse sounding performance (and worse sounding instrument overall)

The player is a variable, whereas the instrument stays parameter.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 18:20:26

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

Same player + better intonating guitar = better sounding performance (and better sounding instrument overall)

Same player + worse intonating guitar = worse sounding performance (and worse sounding instrument overall)

Let's not forget, among all other variables (such has string tension, width, material):

Better player + same intonating guitar = better sounding performance (and better sounding instrument overall)

Worse player + same intonating guitar = worse sounding performance (and worse sounding instrument overall)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 18:40:06

Ruphus

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Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

Let's not forget, among all other variables (such has string tension, width, material)

These won´t change on the relevance of a well set scale.
Unless the strings were so grossly uneven that there was no way to accurately intonate anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

Better player + same intonating guitar = better sounding performance (and better sounding instrument overall)

Worse player + same intonating guitar = worse sounding performance (and worse sounding instrument overall)

That is correct and has basically been said by me before in this thread.
This equation functions both ways; and what it means in the end is that in respect of the discussed object there are two different factors.

And in fact the thread title deals with only one of them for a reason.
-

What your presumed nerding above is concerned:
The better intonation comes through with the very most (well fingered) notes.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 18:55:49

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Am just listening a second time.
The h string seems out of tune. (hohoho, now fire away! But I think that is it.)

Ruphus

PS:
Don´t know why, but in my first years my inability to tune well and quick was majorly due to my difficulties with the h string. Even though, the g is being reported as the typical offender.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 19:16:04

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

These won´t change on the relevance of a well set scale.

I've been trying to make you understand that it totally matters since the beginning.

It's not about string inconsistencies, I didn't even mention that possibility... it's the fact that you have 6 very different strings and if you change them to a different brand/set/tension/material, you'll have the difference between the 6 and the "which string is each one".

To have a fretboard designed for minimal tolerance you would have to design it for a specific string set and the frets couldn't be parallel.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 19:22:33

Ruphus

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Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Do you think I hadn´t known that?

Michael´s approach is the improvement of intonation under conventionally given conditions (just straight rests). Obviously, he thought that there must be improvement possible through better adapting increments, and it seems to my ears there actually was a way.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 19:37:25

Sr. Martins

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Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

Do you think I hadn´t known that?

Yes.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 19:43:34

Ruphus

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Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

I told you before, you mustn´t conclude from yourself onto others.

You prove some incredible inability to overlook matters, and as typical for fools are having no remote notion of it.
You would feel at home over here where the mentality is exactly that. A traditional underestimation of subjects and knowledge.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 19:49:34

Sr. Martins

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Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus)

Well, earlier on you said that wavy frets weren't necessary, giving the impression that with Ruhes method you would get the same benefits without changing fret shape.

Now you know everything and always did...

Could you please pick a side and stick with it?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 20:07:43

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

I think I've found the war to end all wars..
Really? That's awesome! So it's all peace now?
Absolutely! Well.. within a tolerance of occasional stabbings or nuclear warfare..
Hmm.. any sample testing done yet?
Yeah, TOTAL peace, I guarantee!! Here, have a listen to this and be aware of the sea and birds.
Well, I can hear the sea and I definitely hear birds but... what about all these loud explosions and gun fire?
If you can hear past all that you'll be listening to absolute peace, almost like silence... just trust me.
Wow, what a breakthrough!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 20:21:36

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Seriously, are you guys still at it? Don't reply to this message, just put a sock in it, please!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 21:10:34

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

The wiggly frets on "true temperament" are not to get 12TET
You have to use their special offsets
"Cromatic offsets in cents from equal temperament as follows:
E -2, F 0, F” -4, G +4, G” -4, A 0, Bb -4, B -1, C +2, C”-4, D +2, Eb -4."
and yes I know you don't spell it cromatic

http://www.truetemperament.com/how-to-tune/
So your chord intervals like the major third are going to sound a little closer to just intonation for some chords and further away in others

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2015 0:45:41

estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

These Cromatic fretboards? Are they meant to Cromagnon man to play upon?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2015 1:13:58

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Probably, but I think they will have to settle for Steve Vai and Henry Kaiser

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2015 1:16:52

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Jeff Highland)

Are there no This Is Spinal Tap fans here? Vai's sustain comment was a joke that seems to have been completely missed.

SMLP!!!

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tú ahora no me conoces.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2015 4:16:35

Sr. Martins

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Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Jeff Highland)

It was mentioned that Feiten in particular would require a different open string tuning so it couldn't be perfect 12TET right from the start. The wavy fret thing still applies to 12TET though and Feiten might have that option (I don't know, never cared for that).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2015 5:34:16

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

No the wavy fret thing is because there are no longer even intervals of 100 cents between the notes

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2015 7:22:45

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Jeff Highland)

Oh boy.. don't mix the cause with the consequence.

If things worked like you're making it look, then we would be perfectly in 12TET with a straight nut, parallel frets and parallel saddle.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2015 7:47:36

Ruphus

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Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

Seriously, are you guys still at it? Don't reply to this message, just put a sock in it, please!

Agreed, only let me put one point straight in respect of his constantly false reflecting to my posts.
What I said about wavy frets as well as about those cut up ones is that you wouldn´t want to have those, as they must be terrible to play on.

That is a very different statement from allegedly saying that such frets weren´t necessary.
-

A debator owes to other participants to first read / comprehend correctly what has been said, before replying.

And if he fails to do so, in the way it has occasionally happened to me too, he should have the civilisatory decency to admit and if necessary to apologize, which is what I and others have done in such cases.
This guy however has not done so once, despite of errantly responding to debators all the time. Instead keeping up a habit of distorting and tiring.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2015 7:53:00

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

What the BF wavy frets is concerned, who would really like to play on such. Me certainly not. And it isn´t necessary. As you can also see with Ruhes example where frets stay in the goold ol´shape and are merely shifted to where they ought to be when peculiarities of fretted strings are being taken into consideration.

Guess who's being quoted.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2015 8:01:06

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

Oh boy.. don't mix the cause with the consequence. If things worked like you're making it look, then we would be perfectly in 12TET with a straight nut, parallel frets and parallel saddle.

That is exactly what I am not saying
I see nut and saddle compensation as important
It is the non parallel frets that are unnecessary

The wavy frets are so that every E -2, F 0, F” -4, G +4, G” -4, A 0, Bb -4, B -1, C +2, C”-4, D +2, Eb -4."
relative to 12TET, and to achieve that the frets have to be different spacing for each string

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2015 8:12:13

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

Guess who's being quoted.

Congratulations, finally you have been objecting to something that has been there!

I should have added "... for better results under ergonomic conditions".
Something that could be derived from my general argument though, if followed through.

Anyway, I grant you a find under isolated view if that helps.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2015 8:15:02

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Jeff Highland)

That is a specific instance of wavy frets for a given outcome. It doesn't mean that 12TET wouldn't also need distorted frets.

People seem to forget that different string heights/thicknesses/materials will also cause deviation at the fretting point.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2015 8:16:38

Sr. Martins

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Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus)

Ruphus, you always have something to add. Sometimes is just a bit, sometimes you totally change team but what matters is that you're always right.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2015 8:23:31

Jeff Highland

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Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

And then you also have the various body resonances which can push adjacent notes sharp or flat

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2015 8:38:33

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Jeff Highland)

I'll leave further tuning considerations to Ruphus.

He's the one with the amazing ability to spot the benefits of a well intonated fretboard on an out of tune guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2015 8:50:31