RE: Eventual end of guitars structural intonation issue

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Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

the third of the chord (C#) on the 11th fret is easily manipulated. A careless pull toward nut direction and it is awful, too hard a push toward bridge and it's sickeningly sweet.

Yeah but you have wound on that string, that's cheating lol

Either way, Iam used to compensate everything by sharpening. Sweaty hands on stage, multi-colored strings that someone should have already cut the mushrooms from and all that stuff... not that it is better or worse but to make everything even I always compensate by bending. The funny thing is that I only noticed that I was compensating after many years of playing... and even then I thought it was because the guitar was cheap. Now with the internet it's easy to find out what's really happening down there.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2015 0:20:42

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I think a lot of players, especially coming from electric guitar school, think vibrato is only bending and releasing. that only makes notes sharp and then back to pitch. That's why they invented wammy bars. Nylon players should figure it out quick that vibrato should be changing pitch above and BELOW the target note, by rocking the finger side to side (nut to bridge direction), NOT bend and release only. That side to side thing shows why you need to learn how to also PLAY in tune as much as possible.

Cello style vibrato ~ rocking back and forth between nut and saddle as opposed to pulling the string vertically up towards the upper edge of the fingerboard.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2015 0:31:48

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Cello style vibrato

When I played with a pick and "vibratoed" everything, I used to use some sort of diagonal/eliptical vibrato. The classical horizontal back & forth vibrato is something that doesn't work with my fingers on the trebles, I don't know if it's the callous, the density/texture of the flesh.. my fingers don't really grab those trebles horizontally. I use to sweat a lot from my hands too when I was a kid, maybe that's the reason.. but since I started on flamenco I rarely do vibratos anyway, just some VA "seagulls" here and there

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2015 0:42:47

estebanana

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

When I played with a pick and "vibratoed" everything, I used to use some sort of diagonal/eliptical vibrato. The classical horizontal back & forth vibrato is something that doesn't work with my fingers on the trebles,

I think everyones hands and arms address the fingerboard in an individual way. I can see how some variation of elliptical movement can work.

The cello vibrato is not originating in the fingers though, it's a subtle combination of rocking the forearm which rocks the hand. The fingers kind of go along for the ride in a non tense way. But the difference between employing this motion with the neck vertical on the cello and at a more horizontal or 45-ish degree angle on a guitar neck can cause the technique to need individual adjustment to fit the persons body. If you also play the bowed bass you know the vibrato technique is very similar if not the same as cello. I go back a forth between the cello and guitar and I have examined this issue fairly closely through cello studies.

Ilm curious how violin vibrato adapts to guitar, it's similar in intention to cello vibrato, but mechanically somewhat different owing to the the different position the violin is held in in. With cello you ascend the scale by moving your hand away from you and with violin you ascend by moving your hand toward you, so guitar is more similar to cello. As the arm moves lower to take higher notes it changes the of the angle of bend at the elbow, and that in turn effects the way you rock the arm and wrist. When th arm is extended it makes rocking motion a bit harder to get.

Single notes are much easier to use the vibrato on than chords. Holding a chord creates hand positions that impede some rocking and also can set up minor finger tensions that don't occur with single notes so the rocking motion is more difficult to do with chords. But there is still some rocking motion available with chords.

To me bending notes vertically by pushing up the string is more of a melodic modifying effect than warming the tone with true vibrato. It's a completely different objective. Using vibrato in music is a whole discussion in and of itself. It would be interesting to hear how Ricardo uses vibrato in flamenco.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2015 2:05:30

Sr. Martins

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to estebanana)

I think the vibrato is a bit different. I used to play the cello's bigger brother, the double bass and I still play electric fretless bass.

The movement of the arm might be similar but the way it works doesn't seem to be the same because on the guitar you have frets around your vibrato while on something that is fretless you're "rolling" your finger around the pitch (+ & -). The longer the scale is the more you can move around your finger without changing pitch that much, on the double bass you can really move your hand/arm/finger a lot before an "expressive" vibrato can be heard (more on the thicker strings).

With the D.B. example you know you aren't rocking the string sideways or grabbing it with your fingertips so it's all about making your finger work like a boat on top of the string. I imagine it would be the same with cellos but with proportional less movement.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2015 12:40:00

MunichLuthier

Posts: 18
Joined: May 12 2015

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Hi Folks!

I got noticed of that discussion about my intonation improvement. If you are still interested in knowing more directly from the source, here I am!

Before we start, I just want to say that I see nor reason for fighting because there is nothing to fight. Its all about playing and loving the guitar!

Please feel free to ask me anything and please allow some time for answers, as I am quite bussy right now and its not unpolite but just a matter of time, if it takes a bit until I reply!

Kind regards from Munich!

Michael

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2015 13:03:23

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

To me bending notes vertically by pushing up the string is more of a melodic modifying effect than warming the tone with true vibrato. It's a completely different objective. Using vibrato in music is a whole discussion in and of itself. It would be interesting to hear how Ricardo uses vibrato in flamenco.

Vibrato can be used in various ways expressively, though not so exaggerated as in other styles. Sabicas for example, does the horizontal vibrato extremely rapidly. PDL used to do that to, later adapting a slower smoother style. Second movement of Rodigro Adagio and "cancion de amor" are a couple to checkout. I personally feel it is more than just a way to express intonation or cover the error of the 12tet coma (on thirds especially). I feel it is most importantly a RHYTHMIC expression...a way to hold a single note but still express subdivision or groove. It actually annoys me when I hear a vocalist do "chipmunk" vibrato way too fast for the rhythm of the tune, or simply warble randomly with no care for timing. Anyway, one guy that stood out to me in Rito y geografia for his expressive vibrato on guitar was MELCHOR DE MARCHENA.

Anyway, I didn't mean to twist the topic toward vibrato as the musical tool it is...I meant that the simple fact the technique is AVAILABLE to fret players (even though RUI thinks it is different for fretless players, it's not and is in fact the mechnism behind intonating while playing) that it NEGATES the purpose of any sort of special compensation built INTO the instrument design, regardless of action height. In fact, the arguement that higher action is requirement for MORE compensation than low action is silly since with higher action vibrato is even easier to control.

To make a final analogy, today singers can have the voice go through a processor that can autotune live during a performance, so long as the band is in tune it all sounds perfect. Why would they do that? For the same reason a player with careless fret work will prefer to have their notes "filtered" through an instrument that was set up with nicely compensated bridge or frets. The ear no longer needs to dictate accuracy of technique. Shall flamenco players eventually need potty training guitars for playing in tune, as they have come to need potty training metronomes for rhythm? Next up? "Agujeta Autotono" box.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2015 0:05:01

Sr. Martins

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I meant that the simple fact the technique is AVAILABLE to fret players (even though RUI thinks it is different for fretless players, it's not)

The technique as movement looks the same but what happens is not the same, that's what I said. When you don't have frets you can do vibrato easily just by rolling your fingertip side to side horizontally to change the length of the string and that's something you can't do with frets to achieve +pitch & -pitch.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2015 0:13:58

Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

quote:

I meant that the simple fact the technique is AVAILABLE to fret players (even though RUI thinks it is different for fretless players, it's not)

The technique as movement looks the same but what happens is not the same, that's what I said. When you don't have frets you can do vibrato easily just by rolling your fingertip side to side horizontally to change the length of the string and that's something you can't do with frets to achieve +pitch & -pitch.

The technique of "rolling" vs "rocking" looks different too. The point is the mechanism is affecting the intonation of the target pitch in equivilant manners...unlike vertical bending vibrato technique.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2015 0:32:09

Sr. Martins

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

The technique of "rolling" vs "rocking" looks different too. The point is the mechanism is affecting the intonation of the target pitch in equivilant manners...unlike vertical bending vibrato technique.

To the "untrained" eye it's all just horizontal movement... vs the "rockstar up and down vibrato".

I think we're saying the same thing unless I didn't understand your objection on what I've said before.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2015 0:50:33

Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

The classical horizontal back & forth vibrato is something that doesn't work with my fingers on the trebles, I don't know if it's the callous, the density/texture of the flesh.. my fingers don't really grab those trebles horizontally. I use to sweat a lot from my hands too when I

This is what I really don't get...then the subject moved to cello...I would think "rolling" be used for slow vibrato and "rocking" as one would prefer to do on guitar, for faster vibrato no? But anyway I am not a cellist and we are talking guitar compensation here.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2015 0:58:07

Sr. Martins

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

This is what I really don't get...then the subject moved to cello...I would think "rolling" be used for slow vibrato and "rocking" as one would prefer to do on guitar, for faster vibrato no? But anyway I am not a cellist and we are talking guitar compensation here.

I see. I meant that I don't do compensations or vibratos that involve grabbing the string like the C# example you gave. On the trebles, my fingers just slide and it's impossible to make the pitch go down, only up.

With fretless it's easy to go up and down even if the strings are flatwounds and your fingers are sweaty because there's no need to grab the string horizontally, you just roll the finger back and forth. Iam not really imagining someone doing the grabbing thing (C# example) on a double bass, don't know about the cello (never played it).

Yeah, back to intonation!

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2015 1:29:26

estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

This is what I really don't get...then the subject moved to cello...I would think "rolling" be used for slow vibrato and "rocking" as one would prefer to do on guitar, for faster vibrato no? But anyway I am not a cellist and we are talking guitar compensation here.

The subject is actually scale temperance, but everyone keeps calling it compensation or 'compensating a tempered scale', which is an oximoron.

Since the terms are being used interchangeably and incorrectly why not talk about vibrato? I thought your input on vibrato was the most valuable thing in the entire discussion.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2015 3:30:16

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

This is what I really don't get...then the subject moved to cello...I would think "rolling" be used for slow vibrato and "rocking" as one would prefer to do on guitar, for faster vibrato no? But anyway I am not a cellist and we are talking guitar compensation here.

The subject is actually scale temperance, but everyone keeps calling it compensation or 'compensating a tempered scale', which is an oximoron.

Since the terms are being used interchangeably and incorrectly why not talk about vibrato? I thought your input on vibrato was the most valuable thing in the entire discussion.

I think it is clear that "compensation", as discussed by luthiers and others here, is not for scale temperance but rather, STRING BEND, relative to INTENDED temperance. That being, string bend refers to ONLY SHARPENING of intended pitches...which are tempered "wrong" to begin with, only to be made worse, or obvious, SUPPOSEDLY!... ie compensation is intended to function as a sort of "autotune" filter for the player. Of course, you would be correct to say the new constructed instrument is now "tempered differently"...but the intention is the point.

I take back what I said early, having given benefit of doubt to Rui about fretless vibrato, as I had actually SEEN players do what looks like "rolling" as described...a quick look at one of my fav's, yo yo here, it seems he does vibrato by hard "rocking" same as we do on guitar, which I would think is the more "correct" way to do this technique, regardless of thumb/hand postion.

http://youtu.be/zNbXuFBjncw

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2015 16:12:31

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I take back what I said early, having given benefit of doubt to Rui about fretless vibrato, as I had actually SEEN players do what looks like "rolling" as described...a quick look at one of my fav's, yo yo here, it seems he does vibrato by hard "rocking" same as we do on guitar, which I would think is the more "correct" way to do this technique, regardless of thumb/hand postion.

As I've said, it looks the same but it isn't. The rocking movement like in your C# example will bring you -pitch when your finger pad moves towards the fret (bridge side). On a fretless you get +pitch when you go towards the bridge, your finger pad is rolling and sliding a bit on top of the string instead of grabbing it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2015 16:50:48

Ruphus

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Michael,

As you see most participants in this thread have no questions about your application.
That is because they know enough already to assume that your method couldn´t be any helpful. Or maybe I should rather say `assume enough already to know in advance´.
The luthiers who report back to you positively are thus only noobs and fools.

And as there is nothing one could ask you, it makes more sense to talk about something else like fingering intonation than about improved proportions on the fretboard.

If you on the contrary have questions, you can always ask here and these old hands may help you out on the literal fly.

And never mind the warm welcome in the forums region of intellectual Artic!

Best,

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2015 17:27:41

Sr. Martins

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Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus)

Ruphus, how old are you? 10?

Make your friend feel welcome by asking him about all that stuff you don't understand, maybe you'll believe it coming from him...or you'll do like you always do and understand things in your own particular way which never lets you be wrong about anything.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2015 18:01:01

Sr. Martins

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

And by the way, the question to be posed is pretty obvious, it's the title of the thread:

"Is your system the END of guitars structural intonation issue with NO IF's AND BUT's?"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2015 18:13:17

Ruphus

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Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

And by the way, the question to be posed is pretty obvious, it's the title of the thread:

"Is your system the END of guitars structural intonation issue with NO IF's AND BUT's?"

If you ever cared to actually read what people write, independ from liking or not (who´s the kid here?), you would know the answer already.
Take a look at the very first post of this thread.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2015 18:44:12

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

If you ever cared to actually read what people write, independ from liking or not (who´s the kid here?), you would know the answer already.
Take a look at the very first post of this thread.

Ruphus

Then you had the answer right from the moment you posed the question.

I don't see how that's helping your case but yeah, more power to you.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2015 18:51:55

Ruphus

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

I posted a question?

Tell me more.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2015 18:59:26

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

I posted a question?

Tell me more.

You understand what I meant by question and yet you choose to pick on the non-native english speaker.

For a 10 year old, that's awesome.

It won't make a difference if anyone tells you more, you don't pay attention to anything that is beyond what you already want or expect to see.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2015 19:30:39

Richard Jernigan

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From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to MunichLuthier)

Munich Luthier (Michael):

How do you decide where to set the frets? Is it a mathematical model? If so, what are the equations?

Or is it done just empirically? If so, how?

Are the frets are straight, parallel and perpendicular to the center line of the neck? That is to say, not tilted or fanned?

Is the nut or saddle modified? If so, how?

Do you have measured results showing how close the system comes to equal temperament--assuming equal temperament is the objective?

Thanks,

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2015 20:43:32

Sr. Martins

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

About the vibrato thing, here's a double bass video that clearly shows what I've said (from 1min):

You can see that the horizontal rolling has the opposite effect on pitch when compared to what you can do on a fretted guitar although the movement looks very similar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 0:27:49

estebanana

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

You can see that the horizontal rolling has the opposite effect on pitch when compared to what you can do on a fretted guitar although the movement looks very similar.

It's difficult to talk about and explain, but there is also more than one vibrato technique in bowed strings, but I think talking about the similarities and and differences between fretted and bowed vibrato is really interesting.

I especially think explaining the objectives for using vibrato on each instrument is good.

The way the finger plants on the string is important, and also personal. Many players "hang" on the string with the finger tips and don't arc the fingers over as much as the guy in the video, although he has nice clean technique.

On the cello as you go into higher positions the rocking does begin to turn at and angle to the string direction and there is a motion that can be elliptical at a angle to the string and not truly parallel. I think there is a correlation with this movement in how you talk about guitar vibrato and circular movement.

Phil Roshegar the classical guitarist used to talk about cello vibrato a lot, his dad was a cellist and conductor. Phil said when he was a teen learning guitar he bent the string up to try to vibrate and when his dad saw this he got out the cello and taught him to rock horizontally. He used like to talk about vibrato and how the cellist taught him how to do it.

I like to ask advanced players how they think about of how they play, because I already know how I think, and the information from good players helps me more.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 5:22:07

estebanana

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Check it out these systems are well known too.

http://sandenguitars.com/en/true-temperament/

Another:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 5:53:40

Ruphus

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

Are the frets are straight, parallel and perpendicular to the center line of the neck? That is to say, not tilted or fanned?

Not to anticipate his reply, but here is a pic from his website:

Hope he´ll find time soon to respond.

Ruphus

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 7:20:26

Ruphus

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

quote:

I posted a question?

Tell me more.

You understand what I meant by question and yet you choose to pick on the non-native english speaker.
...
It won't make a difference if anyone tells you more, ...

Unlike you who you have been nagging about my English several times, last time just recently again, I never nit-pick on others´ language.
In fact I have been just trying to help someone out on the foro yesterday whose English is so bad that others said they couldn´t understand what he was trying to say.

Actually, I thought your claim of me to have questioned something having been just another case of your misreadings.

"Tell me more" besides is an idiomatic expression.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 7:35:50

Ruphus

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Having went on Michael´s website in order to link to the above photography, I just clicked around a bit more and found his own sound samples here: http://www.ruhe-gitarren.de/en/gitarren/klangbeispiele/

I must admit that I had not been expecting such a lovely sound stage. Quite the `clay bell´like characteristics I know from Hauser guitars. I am impressed.

Guess my statement that the only positive tendency of today being technological progress must include guitar luthiery as well (at least in terms of quantity with top shelf product). For there certainly have never been as much top notch guitars coming from so many different hands / small shops like these days.

It is beyond me how so many builders get to such quality often for a large part over the autodidactic way. Admirable!

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 7:56:36

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

Having went on Michael´s website in order to link to the above photography, I just clicked around a bit more and found his own sound samples here: http://www.ruhe-gitarren.de/en/gitarren/klangbeispiele/

I must admit that I had not been expecting such a lovely sound stage. Quite the `clay bell´like characteristics I know from Hauser guitars. I am impressed.

Guess my statement that the only positive tendency of today being technological progress must include guitar luthiery as well (at least in terms of quantity with top shelf product). For there certainly have never been as much top notch guitars coming from so many different hands / small shops like these days.

It is beyond me how so many builders get to such quality often for a large part over the autodidactic way. Admirable!

Ruphus

Well as a flamenco guy I am into a different tonal quality from instruments, so I stick with flamenco trad guitars as my thing. But listening to your examples, it's hard to be objective about the intonation improvements or not (need same string/piece on non compensated instrument to compare). I will say we can point out one thing...the same player on two different instruments, though the pieces are different, it is clear to me (and I hope to you too and others without an ear not full of guacamole) that the Villa Lobos intonates pretty much just fine, but the Albeniz as SEVERAL trouble spots intonation wise. If the same construction concept in is place for both instruments, I would tend to blame these spots on either :

a. the music...to be objective we need the same piece again heard on both guitars.
b. the tuning...I mean the initial tuning was not right, something is off and revealed in certain voicings.
c. the strings are bad...not true and some bad string or two causing problem that needs to be changed, again for objectivity.

If it be NONE of the above, I would have to say that the albeniz music is simply revealing the fundamental problem with the design. The problem being, sweetening one side of the spectrum sours the other end as in Bach's day.

Since you mentioned Hauser, I must admit it have to be careful on my Fathers guitar left hand wise as it runs a risk of getting "too sweet" up high...and not surprisingly I recently learned Mr. hauser to have been extremely liberal with compensating the bridge.

@Rui...yes I get it that the +/- is reversed when frets are removed, thanks for the vid. I still consider the technique and purpose the same to my point about intonation.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2015 16:39:01