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RE: Eventual end of guitars structural intonation issue
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to El Kiko)
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Things being relative doesn´t mean that they ought to be futile. There always is a better or worse. When I was visiting one of two best reputated guitar stores in Berlin over the course of two or three weeks (trying out their upper shelve, having sent in additional specimens from distributors, etc. pp.) the guitar which in the end appealed the most had only one little defect, which was its intonation. Even though their staff was exceptionally well informed and all accomplished players in the same time, none of the three or four would hear what I was faulting. I had to ask them to engage their Boss tuner for them to realize the imperfection. They then adjusted on the saddle and I bought the instrument. It wasn´t the only situation where I would verifiably hear details that others don´t. It doesn´t mean however that you couldn´t conceive the overall effects of better intonating or better tuned guitars. From there I take it that most of you couldn´t be bothered with listening to the sound samples with Ruhe´s fingerboard. And it wouldn´t surprise, for after years now I somewhat know the typical reaction of online fellow guitarists when presented something they ought to have yet not paid attention to. Usually it is rejection from the get go and not bothering to truley check out on anything. Investing way more energy in constructing defence than in checking out. None of which, besides, has happened with fellow musicians vis-a-vis. With persons opposite it has always ended up with appreciating niceties that I was able to share regarding things like posture, technique or tuning. With at times even later feedback on dramatic effect. Repercussions I have seen only seldomly within internet communities, where a joint rejection of content-related new kids on the block must be feeling so much better. So, guys, if interested in eventual improving even already great sounding guitars from your bench, you may contact Ruhe and see what may or may not come out from it, or alternatively wait and see what Ethan will reflect who as an engineer is in a position to wrap his head around the matter; if not interested in either; humble me will probably survive another dismiss of well-intentioned suggestion. All I can say is that I have not yet heard a guitar intonating as accurately like in those sound clips. Apparently the reason why the artist and owner of the refretted guitar is so spirited about it. But you may chalk us up as dumb esoterics. I can take it, the more as it is contents that interest me the most. Cheers, Ruphus
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Date May 9 2015 9:12:52
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Jeff Highland)
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quote:
Capo's are always going to be a problem. neither nut and saddle compensation nor modified fret placement are going to completely fix it. One of the components of playing the guitar which creates extra string tension and sharpening is your finger pushing down the string between frets to create a positive stop. When you uses a capo, if you apply it carefully to a well intonated guitar, the open strings on the capo may be closer to in tune, but then you play it and the strings you fret are getting a double push, once from the capo and once from your finger. So it won't be perfect, live with it, that's a tradeoff for the versatility a capo provides. Yes this is true, in flamenco the cejilla is so important especially in accompaniment, and the real measure of a flamenco player is how well they accompany. Learning to put the cejilla on the guitar while distorting the strings as little as possible is a minor skill to be learned. The amount of tension in the band that straps the cejilla to the neck needs to be carefully tried until it is just right. I like the cejilla not only for the way it changes the timber, sound quality and pulsation of the guitar in different registers, ( frets position) but also for the way you adjust the intonation by pushing and pulling the strings after you put the cejilla on. The interesting thing this how you tune to play Por Medio and make it sound good is different than how you tune to play Por Arriba. By tuning close in on the A major chord when you play por medio it creates a fluent harmony through the series of A phrygian intervals and chords. It pretty interesting that flamenco is one of the few musics that today in which we use our ear tuning to focus in on how we hear and adjust harmony in a particular key as we play. And we change that harmonic relationship in a subtle way when we change to a different key.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date May 11 2015 0:08:48
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana quote:
Capo's are always going to be a problem. neither nut and saddle compensation nor modified fret placement are going to completely fix it. One of the components of playing the guitar which creates extra string tension and sharpening is your finger pushing down the string between frets to create a positive stop. When you uses a capo, if you apply it carefully to a well intonated guitar, the open strings on the capo may be closer to in tune, but then you play it and the strings you fret are getting a double push, once from the capo and once from your finger. So it won't be perfect, live with it, that's a tradeoff for the versatility a capo provides. Yes this is true, in flamenco the cejilla is so important especially in accompaniment, and the real measure of a flamenco player is how well they accompany. Learning to put the cejilla on the guitar while distorting the strings as little as possible is a minor skill to be learned. The amount of tension in the band that straps the cejilla to the neck needs to be carefully tried until it is just right. I like the cejilla not only for the way it changes the timber, sound quality and pulsation of the guitar in different registers, ( frets position) but also for the way you adjust the intonation by pushing and pulling the strings after you put the cejilla on. The interesting thing this how you tune to play Por Medio and make it sound good is different than how you tune to play Por Arriba. By tuning close in on the A major chord when you play por medio it creates a fluent harmony through the series of A phrygian intervals and chords. It pretty interesting that flamenco is one of the few musics that today in which we use our ear tuning to focus in on how we hear and adjust harmony in a particular key as we play. And we change that harmonic relationship in a subtle way when we change to a different key. Well, I for one take some issues here and there...I know this is quite the "normal" view of things. When jeff highland says "string tension and sharpening" refering to fretting, I get the feeling that most people feel that applying finger pressure or capo pressure, may only result in SHARPENING frequencies/notes, other wise intented to have been "equal tempered" as per initial tunign of the instrument....but actually it can go in the other direction, that being a flattening of the pitch as well. It depends on how one executes the "fretting" activity. To me, the capo is to be taken as "the nut", unlike when when we use a first finger barre and do work with our other fingers as chords or notes of a melody. Most of us have the ear for the modern day "autotuned" pop singer...the equivilant could work on a guitar and one could see how carelessly placed fingers can require corrections to an other wise "in tune" guitar. Perhaps more obvious to a fretless instrument (I saw this done with fretless bass playing) or vocal, but regardless are we talking here about instrument construction, tuning method, or TECHNIQUE??? I know the EVIL temptation to sweet tune por medio vs por arriba, etc...what is being done here is NOT well or just tempermant for a key or form...it is a well temperment for a SPECIFIC GUITAR CHORD VOICING...that is something quite different in my mind. You sweeten a certain chord shape, and all chords in that key that use the SAME VOICING will be equally sweet. But to see that bad logic behind it for flamenco...just look at solea por medio. If you drop the B string to sweeten the third, except for A and Bb, all the rest of the tonos are off and the singer sounds off too. I have learned over years of experience to simply equal temp tune AFTER capo goes on, using harmonics. No fingers on the fingerboard to tune open strings. The rest is technque.
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CD's and transcriptions available here: www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date May 11 2015 22:35:10
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Well, I for one take some issues here and there...I know this is quite the "normal" view of things. When jeff highland says "string tension and sharpening" refering to fretting, I get the feeling that most people feel that applying finger pressure or capo pressure, may only result in SHARPENING frequencies/notes, other wise intented to have been "equal tempered" as per initial tunign of the instrument....but actually it can go in the other direction, that being a flattening of the pitch as well. It depends on how one executes the "fretting" activity. To me, the capo is to be taken as "the nut", unlike when when we use a first finger barre and do work with our other fingers as chords or notes of a melody. Most of us have the ear for the modern day "autotuned" pop singer...the equivilant could work on a guitar and one could see how carelessly placed fingers can require corrections to an other wise "in tune" guitar. Perhaps more obvious to a fretless instrument (I saw this done with fretless bass playing) or vocal, but regardless are we talking here about instrument construction, tuning method, or TECHNIQUE??? I know the EVIL temptation to sweet tune por medio vs por arriba, etc...what is being done here is NOT well or just tempermant for a key or form...it is a well temperment for a SPECIFIC GUITAR CHORD VOICING...that is something quite different in my mind. You sweeten a certain chord shape, and all chords in that key that use the SAME VOICING will be equally sweet. But to see that bad logic behind it for flamenco...just look at solea por medio. If you drop the B string to sweeten the third, except for A and Bb, all the rest of the tonos are off and the singer sounds off too. I have learned over years of experience to simply equal temp tune AFTER capo goes on, using harmonics. No fingers on the fingerboard to tune open strings. The rest is technque. Well now you've busted me as I succumb to the Evil temptation of tuning my A chord nice nice. Of course for a guy like me it is wonderful as I can only play A and E chords! Seriously, do you think there is a happy medium between stretching the tuning out to make chords other than the tonic voicing play in wonky intervals, and putting tiny bit of sugar on the I-V relationship? BTW I'm on board with Equal temperament and have no argument about that. The thing I've been sort of dancing around to try to be polite is the fact that there is a whole discipline in music that is a study of temperance and if you have read into it you can find throughout the history one nuttbag after another who tries to proclaim his proprietary system works. (All of this is temperance and not compensation. Two separate issues.)
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date May 12 2015 0:03:31
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