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RE: Eventual end of guitars structural intonation issue
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constructordeguitarras
Posts: 1674
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA
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 RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to estebanana)
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Thanks again, Sr. Martin and Estebanana, for continuing the conversation. I will take a look at that book, Estebanana.
I have always been aware and bothered that people have been concerned with the intonation at the 12th fret while ignoring it elsewhere because it is easy to check the octaves.
I am guessing that a linear progression of fret compensation from none at the zeroth fret (nut) to the 19th fret, with the value at the 12th fret corresponding to the usual saddle compensation, would be effective, or interesting. Why wouldn't it be linear?
So if the usual saddle compensation is, say, 1.0 mm, then the compensation at each fret is given by C = mF, where C is the compensation for the fret F; m is the slope of the line, in this case 1/12 (that is, one mm divided by the fret number 12, since the compensation at that fret is 1.0 mm); and F is the fret number. Thus the compensation, to be subtracted from the distance between the nut and fret is:
Fret , Compensation
1 , 1/12 = 0.08 mm
2 , 2/12 = 0.17 mm
3 , 3/12 = 0.25 mm
etc.
_____________________________
Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
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Date May 8 2015 1:21:15
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Fawkes
Posts: 103
Joined: Feb. 11 2015
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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)
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Stephen,
Tempering is compromising tuning according to some purpose. In the sense a modern musician thinks about it, the purpose was the design of tuning systems which allowed playing in more keys. Arguably this modern sense is an after-the-fact nomenclature which loses the history of 'tempering'. That old sense, which survives among piano tuners and players of gut-fret instruments, allows for other purposes, such as tempering to suit preferred keys or an instrument's acoustic idiocyncracies.
In that latter sense, I can see how one might take what Ethan is talking about to be 'tempering'. In fact, on a baroque guitar that's what some would call moving the frets from their measured positions to get them to play in tune, which is what you have to do since there is no saddle.
But in the modern context doesn't 'compensation' give a clearer idea of what is being done, and without violating some important distinction? Especially since I think most people think of 'tempering' in the first sense I gave?
The essence of 'compensation' is changing the sounding string length to tune the sound closer to a chosen tuning. Is the fact that normally it is done at the saddle essential? What would be lost here?
No need to get into "absolute perfect intonation". I don't think anyone here is after that. Suffice to say that however close a guitar can get to being perfectly in tune (in equal temperament), some guitars come closer to achieving that than others. At least for some types of guitar, compensation is part of how that is achieved. Physically, you can apply the changes to the frets instead of the saddle. You can call it 'tempering', but many people will be confused by that and think you're somehow departing from the norm, i.e. from equal temperament.
I doubt anyone was confused when John S. said he compensates the frets. Anyway maybe he'll address that, he's in a good position to say whether people are confused by that terminology.
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Date May 8 2015 4:23:39
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SEden
Cheers Rufus, I was just being lazy and couldn't be bothered to read the whole blurb.
It's in interesting concept so I just picked up a classical guitar to see just how out of tune it was down the finger board. My results showed that it wasn't out of tune all of the way down apart from the A# was a little flat in both cases on the top e. That's with a scale length of 650mm and string length compensation of +1.5mm.
Finger pressure on the string did seem to sharpen the notes somewhat so I think I should play more lightly!
If I understood the definition of equal temperament is was a way of fixing the scales so all instruments with a fixed scale would all play in tune with each other at the same frequencies In the western world that means the octave is divided up into 12 notes known as 12TET. A440 being the standard A. Is that a correct understanding?
I think Ethan is talking about compensating the frets so the play closer to Equal temperament?
As Sr. Martin said though (which also echoed my post) The only way to make a guitar play in tune in every note on every fret is to have individual movable frets. Which as I stated does exist.
I am much better at wood work than this kind of stuff so I am probably wrong.
I think you got that all correctly.
And Ethan is aiming for the same thing as Michael Ruhe. Hence, to have the fret position closer to the demand for practial conditions.
For, from what I understand, the common fret positioning has been layed out considering the strings vibrating length for an indiviual fret. However, without adding to the calculation the individual variables that make the impact on the string when it is actually fretted / fingered.
Taking the latter into the calculation seems to pay. At least my ear tells me so when listening to the recorded examples.
(Section "Musica en Latinoamerica" on this website (and specially the Villa-Llobos bit I would say): http://www.havenstein.de/htm/de/piezasescuchar22.htm )
As I said, at first it sounds a bit weird, as one has gotten used to the slightly skewed characteristics of traditional guitar scale ( the more accurate example sounds almost kind of sterile at first), but after only seconds you appreciate the improvement.
And I think to hear in mind how such further improved intonation would effect not just the sole soundstage of the guitar, but more so when accompanying instruments like the piano.
In my life I have been progressively embracing every bit towards more accurate tuning and intonation. Little goes a long way in this field, as it effects a number of collective factors which amount to very pleasing overall improvement.
Ruphus
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Date May 8 2015 12:07:25
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins
The sum of all your self induced placebos has to be much greater than your ability to recognize intonation issues so don't sweat it and learn to behave yourself.
Pumkin,
you constantly respond to hallucinations.
And as you obviously never care to read your own blabbing over ...
You relate to Ruhes altered fretting with:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins
Once again, Buzz Feiten comes to mind both for the wavy frets and nut compensations.
whereas neither "wavy frets" nor "compensated nuts" happen to occur anywhere in the discussed method.
Next you quote a section from his website where he relates to correcting fretboards with common methods:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins
This is translated from his website. Either way, if it's nothing new.. how can it be his invention?
whilst we are discussing whereabouts of his fretboard design, and IN NO WAY repairing methods.
And never even once can you be seen admitting your lunatic fallacies, lesser even apologizing for the constantly unfounded disturbances in the debates, when being patiently pointed out your inconsistency like below.
quote:
ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras
Thanks for your comment, Sr. Martins, but I don't understand its basis. ...
I didn't see anything about compensation at the nut.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruphus
Again a reflection to something that has not been said.
The nut stays untouched, while the common compensation from between octave (12th fret) and saddle shall be substituted by spreading that increment across the frets, whichs positions thus will be slightly shifted.
Instead you always evade the pointers for to keep jumping into the next blind babbling.
It would be nice if you kept your ADHS issue at least out from threads opened by me.
I don´t have time to waiste on mentally pointless cases.
Thank you.
Ruphus
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Date May 8 2015 14:47:37
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Sr. Martins
Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
When I play a normal classical guitar, the action over the fingerboard feels pretty much the same as any flamenco to me. That being some guitars are lower or higher than others. Bridge height is a different matter.
I've noticed too the "flamenco is low action so it doesn't count". Although it doesn't make sense, maybe they say that because there's less effect from strings that are nearer the frets...
...but then again, if we're discussing matters of less than 2 cents, should we really write off low action guitars? It's LESS of a problem but, if one goes to the extent of correcting something for let's say 0,5cents on a classical, then 1cent on a flamenca doesn't matter? No compensations for gitanos, is that it? :p
Then again, maybe some of the folks are thinking about saddle height in relation to the top...which is not the cause of the "problem".
_____________________________
"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"
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Date May 8 2015 20:03:27
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