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Eventual end of guitars structural intonation issue   You are logged in as Guest
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Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

Eventual end of guitars structural i... 

Having rediscovered a restaurated guitar of mine, I visited Michael Ruhe´s website who once kindly did the work for me.

Already back then he told me about a soultion for much better intonation which at that time he was still planning to have it patented. As I see now, he has done so in the meantime.

If you want to hear examples of the result listen to the section "Musica en Latinoamerica" on this website (specially to the Villa-Llobos bit I would say): http://www.havenstein.de/htm/de/piezasescuchar22.htm

Please bear with me that I only corrected on the fly what Google Translate spit out from the originally German text of Mr. Ruhe.
quote:


What's is it about?

About improving the sound accuracy (intonation) of plucked instruments, here explained using the example of the classical guitar. In the text is spoken of guitars or instruments. The statements made however apply in principle to all fretted instruments such as steel string guitars, electric guitars, lutes, mandolins, tremors, Ouds etc., in each case individual proportions to be used for setting increments.

Why was the invention necessary?

Because guitars with common scale proportions will generate only certain notes with accurate frequency. ... There are many good intoning guitars, yet the invention has its place, as it is accessible to everyone and also possible with instruments factory production. With methods of tuning guitarists have always been trying to compensate for common shortcomings. Most players employ the 5th or 4th fret, because this is the most common form in the novice class. When all 6 strings are tuned that way there will be tweaking to compensate for imbalance (most audible with the g-string), by using a chord retuning with harmonics. Either way, tuning methods have the aim to spread the errors ...and to nowhere mismatch dramatically. And while playing several problematic combinations (eg the fretted note at higher elevations plus open string) may be avoided or "masked" with vibrato. Whereas for playing in the very upper register the instriment may be specially tuned.
Background: The arrangement of the frets is calculated in ways that will only be sounding accurately, if strings may not be pushed down to the fret / increasing strings tension, hence measurements set in accordance for when strings oscillate freely not taking into consideration strings altered mass and internal friction. Such and resulting errors were discussed repeatedly in numerous publications in the past.
Howsoever, the frets are placed until today in almost all guitars as if there were´t influences through playing. These influences however become more obvious, the shorter the remaining vibrating length of the string. Because of tension of a string being increased when fretted and the sound produced sounding higher than it should be, because of the occurance of further stress for the remaining oscillation length. Instrument makers will usually compensate with the position of the saddle for the 12th fret and spot of oktave, for the octave to sound correct at the 12th fret.
Through this compensation of the instrument maker, the basic problem is corrected only partially and there will occure sections of good tonal purity and others of poor tonal purity. Poor sounding sections are usually around 5th-9th frets. Albeit not too obvious because of the relatively great length of the fretted string which leaves the impurity not too drastically audible, whereas the inaccuracy at 14th fret and higher will be more obvious.



What is the invention?

The idea was to take the saddle compensation and spread it across the frets. Thus the correction of the bridge saddle is obsolete and it can be just positioned accurately at a distance of scale length. With the new method of calculation all frets will be shifted to where tzhey belong for accurate pitch. ... For the oktave compensation the channel insert is offset by 0.5 mm for the treble and up to 3 mm in bass, therefore preserving the scale generally; thus the saddle compensation becoming obsolete. ... (More tech talk here.)


What is the result of this invention?

* A guitar constructed according to my inventions fingerboard should be tuned only via the open strings by tuner. There will be no more adjustments needed. ...

* No matter what position you play, the notes sound exactly equal temperament accordingly. Hence, a piano or any other instrument maybe acompanied without any audible pitch errors.

* For people with trained ear, the guitar sounds uniquely coherent and better in any register, open strings and harmonics will correspond to the fretted notes etc. In concequence fingerings will be possible that were previously sonically unacceptable.

* For people with untrained ear sounds coming from the adequately calculated fretboard will be clearly more touching and - without knowing exactly why - beautiful.


What is it that the invention can´t do?

* The invention may not equally produce most accurate sound for all types of string material. Karbon strings need less compensation and nylons more of it. However, the variations in different materials are so small that they are barely audible and there will in any case a better tuned instrument. It is in addition also possible to for instance adjust for the minimal deviation with carbon strings by inserting a dedicated saddle.

* The invention can not prevent unintentional change of pitch through player´s pulling or pushing at the fret.

* The improvement of non-compensated instruments is possible through a re-scaling of the fingerboard. There are specialists in the market, who correct intonation errors with other methods. The aim of the invention was, however, to avoid this from the outset.



If you want to know more about this patent, please contact me! I will be gladly provide more information.


His description appears of sense to me, and eventhough the accuracy at first appearing unusual to my ears, I think to actually appreciate the effects shown in the clips. (Should one of you guys receive another oder from me some day, I´ll sure be interested in this scale.)

Michael seemd like a down to earth guy, and I am certain that he won´t be outrageous with handing over his concept to colleagues.
http://www.ruhe-gitarren.de/en/patentmensur/

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2015 16:28:25
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

The invention can not prevent unintentional change of pitch through player´s pulling or pushing at the fret.


Oh jesus, what a mess.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2015 20:50:44
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Oh jesus, what a mess.


I found lot's of "messy bits" too but after reading more on the guy's website, the patent thing and all... oh boy, Iam not even commenting on this.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2015 21:13:29
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

... the patent thing and all...


Unless it is just about making a stink; care to elaborate?

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2015 22:36:33
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

Unless it is just about making a stink


You should know better already.



The man is basically saying that the "invention" is not his invention and his already patented in other places by other people. Once again, Buzz Feiten comes to mind both for the wavy frets and nut compensations.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2015 22:44:01
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Oh jesus, what a mess.



You seem to be comitted to refusing the circumstance that individual fretting deviation won´t anull intonation properties of a guitar.

However versed or poorly a player be, a better or worse intonating guitar still remains as advantageous or disadvantageous as is.

Flamencos can be almost as close-minded like the classical guys.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2015 22:44:42
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins


The man is basically saying that the "invention" is not his invention and his already patented in other places by other people. Once again, Buzz Feiten comes to mind both for the wavy frets and nut compensations.


That is not what he is saying. And it would be paradox if he did.

In fact he is saying that Buzz Feiten appropriated German Konrad Schwingenstein´s invention and patent for USA.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2015 22:46:46
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

individual fretting deviation won´t anull intonation properties of a guitar


What?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2015 22:49:13
 
Ruphus

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus

Meaning that a better intonating guitar will always be advantageous independently of the player´s quality with fretting.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2015 22:50:55
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

In most cases, however, one correction on amended bridge and bone saddle. For this I use the method that has Konrad Schwingenstein invented and patented and under www.pepiderzweite.de described. In America, this patent has someone on its own and sells it with great success under the name "buzzfeiten tuning". This are very good results in a very gentle for the guitar "intervention" possible.


This is translated from his website. Either way, if it's nothing new.. how can it be his invention?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2015 22:52:36
 
Ruphus

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus

It is:
quote:

In Amerika hat sich dieses Patent jemand zu eigen gemacht und vertreibt es mit großem Erfolg unter dem Namen “buzzfeiten tuning”. Damit sind sehr gute Ergebnisse bei einem für die Gitarre sehr schonenden “Eingriff” möglich.


Which roughly means: "In America someone has appropriated this patent and is marketing it with great success under the name `buzzfeiten tuning´. With this method pretty good results can be achieved at a very save operation to the guitar."

Ruhe´s method differs from Konrad Schwingenstein´s, otherwise he would had not received a patent.

Ruphus

PS:
Just got your drift with the quote.
You quoted from the part where he speaks about adjusting guitars with less than perfect proportions. There he recommends the Schwingenstein method for moderate cases and replacement of the fretboard / refretting with his scale for more serious cases.

His main aim however is the ensuring of optimal fret positioning from start / during the construction of guitars.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2015 22:58:26
 
Ruphus

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus

I just noted Stephen reading.

Guess he may remark that it is more about stiffness caused by the tension that increasingly contributes to the tonal mismatch the shorter the fretted string becomes.
At least do I think to recall him mentioning the stiffness matter once and it sounded sensible to me.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2015 23:43:41
 
keith

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From: Back in Boston

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus

I went to the Buzz Feiten website and from what I can discern the system seems to be for guitars with an adjustable bridge (i.e., an electric guitar)--see the quote below

"2. Intonation
Your guitar's bridge is adjusted according to our Patented Pitch Offsets, creating balanced intonation over the entire fingerboard - every fret - every string."

Since nylon string guitars (flamenco and classical) typically do not have an adjustable bridge I wonder if using either the German or American version will work.

Compensated nuts are not new but just not quite as pronounced as the picture at the Buzz Feiten site suggests.

As to the legality of the system, I think we better leave that to the legal beagles.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2015 11:07:02
 
Ruphus

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus

The buzzfeiten method is also apllied to acoustic guitars by taking the first fret as orientation and adjusting nut and saddle from there.

What the BF wavy frets is concerned, who would really like to play on such. Me certainly not. And it isn´t necessary. As you can also see with Ruhes example where frets stay in the goold ol´shape and are merely shifted to where they ought to be when peculiarities of fretted strings are being taken into consideration.

Actually, I must say that I am surprised about how such a measure has not been taken already long before. In fact decades ago when I had no clue (neither the ear for intonation) I thought such regarding spec to be implented into luthiery routine anyway.
But it´s never too late.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2015 11:35:16
 
Stephen Eden

 

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From: UK

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus

As it's patented why is there nothing that shows what Ruhe is doing. I had a look and found the same blurb that Ruphus has posted but can't see an example of it being different.

I have seen a few guitars with the shelf nut with string by string compensation but they all had terrible intonation. I made a new 'normal' nut for them compensated the saddle more and bang spot on again.

The only system I have seen that really works in all situations was the moveable fret system I saw on a Walter Vogt guitar. What stood out the most was how far apart each of the frets were. For instance the 5th frets easily had a variation of 3mm

My client said it was a fantastic system but an absolute pain as it took hours to set up again when he decided to change string brand.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2015 11:37:17
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1672
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

The idea was to take the saddle compensation and spread it across the frets. Thus the correction of the bridge saddle is obsolete and it can be just positioned accurately at a distance of scale length.


This sounds like such a good idea, and so obvious! Why didn't I think of this? I'll have to give it a try. Thanks Ruphus.

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www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
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I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2015 17:19:04
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to constructordeguitarras

@Ethan

If you only compensate at the nut, you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot. If you feel the need to do any compensation to the nut it's very likely that you also want to do it at the saddle unless you're doing a fretless guitar... but if that's the case you also don't need to compensate the nut.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2015 17:42:52
 
Ruphus

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Stephen Eden

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

As it's patented why is there nothing that shows what Ruhe is doing. I had a look and found the same blurb that Ruphus has posted but can't see an example of it being different.


What were you expecting to see?
It is a guitar with normal frets, nut and saddle. The difference being how the frets are being positioned.

If wanting to check for a difference listen to the sound samples.
And Ruhe mentioning the neglectable difference between strings after optimal fret positioning makes sense to me. (With most prominent yet small difference being between carbon and nylon, in respect of which one could keep in store a second saddle.)

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2015 21:01:03
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus

With parallel frets, what he seems to be claiming is just... physically impossible.

I can come up with a true temperament gizmo and patent it... as long as you don't touch the guitar, the perfect equal temperament will be there for all 6 strings.

Anyone interested?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2015 21:10:21
 
Ruphus

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to constructordeguitarras

Again a reflection to something that has not been said.

The nut stays untouched, while the common compensation from between octave (12th fret) and saddle shall be substituted by spreading that increment across the frets, whichs positions thus will be slightly shifted.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2015 21:33:43
 
Ruphus

 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at May 7 2015 21:44:51
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2015 21:36:37
 
Ruphus

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

With parallel frets, what he seems to be claiming is just... physically impossible.

I can come up with a true temperament gizmo and patent it... as long as you don't touch the guitar, the perfect equal temperament will be there for all 6 strings.

Anyone interested?


You could make an effort of comprehending first what people are saying and what discussed matters actually are about.
This hasty bubbling along without grasp is really tiring.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2015 21:45:22
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

This hasty bubbling along without grasp is really tiring.


Still waiting for your friends at Peterson to tell me Iam wrong about the other thread.

You keep misunderstanding the scope of what you read and this time it is no exception.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2015 21:52:51
 
Ruphus

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus

In the other thread you were even more clueless and superficial than in here.
Not even understanding the difference between presets and tempered tuning.
It is more than obvious that you utter quicker than able to think, and you shouldn´t leave it to others so freely to realize that. Instead, as I said above, make a cognitive effort first.

If you don´t think to owe that to yourself, you definitly owe it to fellow people.
Have respect.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2015 0:26:01
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus

Iam sure you say that about a lot of people.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2015 0:38:46
 
constructordeguitarras

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From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:

If you only compensate at the nut, you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot. If you feel the need to do any compensation to the nut it's very likely that you also want to do it at the saddle unless you're doing a fretless guitar... but if that's the case you also don't need to compensate the nut.


Thanks for your comment, Sr. Martins, but I don't understand its basis. The idea that intrigues me is to spread out the compensation--that would otherwise have been done at the bridge saddle--among the frets instead. I envision it this way:

--Making the string length the scale length, as stated.

--Moving the 12th fret a little bit towards the nut so that when playing on the 12th fret the portion of sting on the bridge side is slightly longer than the portion on the nut side. Thus, the vibrating string portion is the same length as in a guitar with a "normally" compensated bridge.

--Doing the same for all the other frets, with the amount of compensation for each fret unique to that fret and gradually increasing from the first fret on.

Isn't this what is referred to here? I didn't see anything about compensation at the nut.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2015 0:42:15
 
estebanana

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus

deleted

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2015 0:43:13
 
constructordeguitarras

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From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to estebanana

Thanks, estebanana (banana?). Okay, I understand the tempering of the fret positions. But compensation comes after this, to account for the change that occurs to the string when it is depressed from its height to the fret.

Anyway, I think that for the low action required by most flamenco guitarists this doesn't matter. For classical guitars, sure.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2015 0:48:47
 
estebanana

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus

deleted

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2015 0:51:21
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus

There are a few variables.

The most important thing is to know what problem you're trying to solve/improve or at least to REALLY understand what will be improved with the solution(s) you've read about.


Don't forget string thickness/material... it's not just the height.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2015 0:55:25
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