RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!!

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Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins
Suggestions are welcome.

The difficulty with a single 'technique' score is that voters have to find a compromise between speed and cleanliness. That's why people going fast and dirty get scores lower than people going slow and clean. Perhaps had we split 'technique' into two then someone who tried to go at speed would get more credit for that aspect. This speed score could be automatic, based on the % of the original bpm - go at half speed, you get half points.

Although it was stated to not mix aire and technique, going too fast often degrades both timing and cleanliness. So a third 'speed' score could really have helped put more credit where it was due for attempting to reproduce John's speed.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2015 8:10:33

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to Dudnote)

the brief was to reproduce it as best as possible ... all aspects would include the original tempo ...

i'm ok really with the way things are going ...but ... the thing about playing slow and deliberate so as to be clean and not make mistakes is ..

how long do you do that for ?..
when will you speed up and see what comes out?
its all part of the challenge .. playing things even too fast is still a learning experiment .
you can of course be so safe for ever .. and you will get a discount on metronomes that only go up to 90 bpm

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2015 8:45:11

JohnWalshGuitar

Posts: 517
Joined: Aug. 10 2009

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to El Kiko)

Thanks very much everyone for making the effort of learning a little bit of my music.
I have downloaded the tracks and will listen to them after I get home from today's gig.
Personally I like things to be as clean as possible when recording but I don't think it goes against any aire or anything. Personally I prefer to hear something slightly slower but clean(to a point) but for me one of the most important things is to 'transmitir' as they say so I am interested to hear peoples individuality in the recordings.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2015 10:58:25

jg7238

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to JohnWalshGuitar)

I totally forgot about this challenge. I did learn John's falseta fairly well after he made some pointers on a few things... I listened to all the entries. Very nice job from all of the participants. I think I made my pick.. I hope I can be taken somewhat seriously...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2015 23:26:43

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to jg7238)

Reminder:

In case we don't get all the people to vote, John is voting on Tuesday 14th (no voting allowed after John's). After that you'll have 24 hours to execute the last stage of this challenge. Failing to do so will exclude you from the final results.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2015 21:52:59

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

the last stage is deleting your voting post?.. and saying this name is me ? ...yes ..
so the votes you gave yourself disappear ,. is that right ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2015 23:00:41

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

the last stage is deleting your voting post?.. and saying this name is me ? ...yes ..
so the votes you gave yourself disappear ,. is that right ?

You just erase what is written after your alias and replace it with the total amount of points you've received. If someone fails to do this after the 24h period, you'll have to subtract the points that person gave you.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2015 23:27:12

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to Dudnote)

AND they're judging doesn't count??? That seems ridiculously militant and harsh but whatever.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 0:32:51

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

AND they're judging doesn't count??? That seems ridiculously militant and harsh but whatever.....

Of course not. Would we have to guess who they were to subtract their own points for them? Did you vote on the two users who failed the first step by not providing the mp3?

If the idea was to play whatever you want whenever you want, why enter challenges? Why have rules? What's the point of prizes?

If you don't have time or patience to follow something that's supposed to be a community thing, don't sign up.

edit: BTW, you're the one who decided on the 24h deadline. There's a reason for it to be called a deadline.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 0:44:42

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to Dudnote)

quote:

If you don't have time or patience to follow something that's supposed to be a community thing, don't sign up.

Never mind, I suppose I can agree with that, everyone but Fred should have voted by now too.......

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 0:51:19

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Never mind, I suppose I can agree with that, everyone but Fred should have voted by now too.......

Right, the voting period was extended for Fred.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 0:52:19

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

OK.....

Got it ....

.i think I am definitely more or less not confused ..

however this is the longest and most complicated challenge to date ...the old format was much better ..i think

but now i think i have it ...however It wouldn't be inaccurate to assume that I couldn't exactly not say that I am or possibly not almost partially confused . meaning I'm possibly more or less not definitely rejecting the idea that in no way with any amount of uncertainty that I am undeniably certain ..
...
are we all ok with that?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 17:01:04

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1889
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

however this is the longest and most complicated challenge to date ...the old format was much better ..i think

i have to agree unfortunately...also it would've been nice for everyone to get impartial high level players to vote and add their input as well; it'll be great to hear John's comments, but Todd's and Ricardo's (etc) opinions would've been invaluable for all participants...

quote:

You just erase what is written after your alias and replace it with the total amount of points you've received.

This is totally confusing. If I erase all of my post (points and comments), others won't be able to add their own received points. The only one who can do that is the one keeping score. The only logical way to do this is to erase the score you gave yourself, changing that part to the nickname you assigned yourself, leaving the rest. (This seems to be the intent on the challenge page, but it gets confusing if you're reading this topic.)

Also, the challenge page is not listed, I'm still using Lenador's signature to reach it...how's anyone supposed to find it?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 17:10:00

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

quote:

The only logical way to do this is to erase the score you gave yourself, changing that part to the nickname you assigned yourself, leaving the rest.

That's what you're supposed to do. I don't get where's the confusion.

It's strange that people find this system "too much". It's just submit, vote, sum your points.. what's so complicated about this?

Quoting johnnefastis:

I am afraid I am harsh on those that went for 
speed over precision as its just not so nice to listen too and it was a Solea Challenge so I think its 
fine to take it easy.

After all that has been said, this is the kind of thing I don't really understand. A big effort was made to get everyone on the same page for this challenge but it looks like there are always those who just refuse to do so.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 17:16:56

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1889
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

After all that has been said, this is the kind of thing I don't really understand. A big effort was made to get everyone on the same page for this challenge but it looks like there are always those who just refuse to do so.

This is why we used to have different levels and falsetas. That way you're more likely to come up against similar players speed and technique-wise. John's falseta would've been appropriate for an advanced challenge and most people entering the challenges are usually beginners or intermediates.

No matter what, I'm sure this challenge has been a good experience for everyone and we'll learn from the mistakes in the future. I'd really like it if we had another composition challenge, that's the one that pushed me the most in the past.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 17:34:32

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

quote:

This is why we used to have different levels and falsetas. That way you're more likely to come up against similar players speed and technique-wise. John's falseta would've been appropriate for an advanced challenge and most people entering the challenges are usually beginners or intermediates.

That's what I've been saying all along and I think most people agree with it. The thing is that since this challenge was a little different in nature, I couldn't predict what people were going to record, much less how they would vote. But yeah, the voting was a total fail as I've already mentioned.. the challenge system worked fine IMO.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 17:53:29

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to Dudnote)

I see where you are coming from Rui but it's really hard to give marks when something sounds rushed to the point of not being enjoyable to listen too. One thing we could do is just put in a mark for speed. Like some kind of par system. I would be happy to add that in. 200 bpm = 10 points, 100 bpm = 5 points. I would be totally happy to add that into the equation.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 18:07:23

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to johnnefastis)

quote:

I see where you are coming from Rui but it's really hard to give marks when something sounds rushed to the point of not being enjoyable to listen too. One thing we could do is just put in a mark for speed. Like some kind of par system. I would be happy to add that in. 200 bpm = 10 points, 100 bpm = 5 points. I would be totally happy to add that into the equation.

I've suggested something like that too, my voting was based on something similar. Now it's too late to change things but at least we learn something.

I think Lenny is the only user who thinks it is good and fair as it is, everyone else seems to disagree. We learn from this and do better next time we have a challenge of this nature.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 18:38:03

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to Dudnote)

I may be the only one who thinks it's okay but I'm a boxing fan so I'm obviously used to wild judging. :)

This challenge has been unnecessarily complicated though.....

I still can't understand how a sloppy unmusical fast falseta is a closer replication than a slow clean one....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 18:58:27

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

This challenge has been unnecessarily complicated though.....

It was not the challenge that was complicated, it's all about "old habits"...resistance to change.

Everything was laid out clear but people just skipped over and kept talking about "how it used to be".

With this system no one knows who is who, there's no email involved.

1 - upload
2 - vote
3 - do your math

...how the hell is this hard?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 19:03:42

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

I still can't understand how a sloppy unmusical fast falseta is a closer replication than a slow clean one....

Once again, it's the difficulty level and all that stuff that has been talked about regarding the purpose of the challenge. I think you don't want understand this no matter how I say it so I give up.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 19:11:32

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

quote:

I still can't understand how a sloppy unmusical fast falseta is a closer replication than a slow clean one....

That's not what Rui is saying. If the scoring had been speed, cleanliness and aire then the two extremes you describe would score about the same, on speed+cleanliness, probably with the slow version winning on aire. But would depend on how minor the sloppiness was.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 20:13:20

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to Dudnote)

I can tell you that in my voting, a really slow version would have a hard time to compete with a slightly sloppy faster one, no matter how clean the slow one was... and if it was sloppy despite being slow, wouldn't make it past 6 on Technique.

I can overlook a few bum notes at a medium speed but if it's played slow and still has mistakes... what's challenging about this?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 20:31:05

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

quote:

most people entering the challenges are usually beginners or intermediates.

most people entering challenges should be beginners or intermediates...

in fact especially beginners , as these are the people that need the pointers and practice and all that goes with it ,,,
Advanced dont need this ,,, and advanced challenge is a bit of a waste of time ,,, sorry but i think that advanced players dont need this ,,,..
If you want to compose something ... go ahead .. and post it if you need feedback , you dont really need someone to organize a challenge in order to do this ... .

I think , apart from doing your own stuff , its the advanced that we , (crappy players ), look to to help try to see what is what and more importantly ...why it is so ...

an advanced challenge would be
1. thats really good and so well played
2. also that is really good and so well played
3. yet another really good entry . and so well played ...

the winner is ....
eeeny , meeeny mynee mo .....No. 2 ...well done ....

I dont get how that helps anyone , including the advanced player ...

the one thing they could do would be get together here on line to produce , One single piece of music ,, with all advanced players inputs ,, and we could watch and see how it shaped up .

Now THAT is and advanced challenge .......

off you go ...............

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 20:49:48

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

If you want to compose something ... go ahead .. and post it if you need feedback , you don't really need someone to organize a challenge in order to do this

I like composition challenges. It forces you to do something, stitch a couple of things together.. it gives you focus to do something that otherwise you would just "do it later".

Of course, there has to be a common framework, it can't be a "play whatever you want" kind of thing... that's not fun.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 21:08:40

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1889
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

most people entering challenges should be beginners or intermediates...

Please don't quote me in this way. I was a complete beginner when I joined this forum and my playing has evolved among with other players, some of whom are now sadly much less active on here. We entered the challenges together and generally had a great time. It's great to have people contribute in any way, it makes the foro a place worth visiting.

Music is something you never finish learning until you die - more advanced players need challenges too and it's a good thing to have the foro where you can be in a friendly competition with others. Also, don't underestimate the gains to earn from a composition challenge (which I see is not going to be a popular idea at this point in foro history).

quote:

the one thing they could do would be get together here on line to produce , One single piece of music

This happened here twice if I remember correctly. It would be nice to have it again. Same thing could happen for players of all levels.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 21:09:37

FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

I only got back home today, I'm listening to the entries now. I'll post my judging in about one hour.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 21:30:27

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to FredGuitarraOle)

quote:

I got back home today, I'm listening to the entries now. I'll post my judging in one hour, more or less.

Tranquilo, ainda tens tempo. Dúvido que ele va votar logo a seguir à meia noite...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 21:32:51

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

quote:

Please don't quote me in this way. I was a complete beginner when I joined this forum and my playing has evolved among with other players....

I am quoting you, mate, because it is so true and compelling a testimonial to this wonderful forum

Perhaps, there could be another collection of compositions, but without stressing the need to culminate in ceremoniously appointing a "winner".

As we saw the last time, only a few really contributed; the material would scarcely fill a one-hour album.

Incidentally, this was a lovely challenge. I enjoyed listening to all entries, and all participants deserve a warm and rewarding round of applause ...

... Bravo!!

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 22:01:57

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Chal... (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

Incidentally, this was a lovely challenge. I enjoyed listening to all entries, and all participants deserve a warm and rewarding round of applause ...

... Bravo!!

Thank you. It's nice to see there's a few people who were interested even thought they didn't sign up for it.

I was going to propose myself to organize a "traditional foro challenge" (Summer Challenge?) with the prizes that Simon collected but it seems that a few people think my method is too complicated. Honestly, I think it's the best method for this kind of thing because there's no need to let one person out to receive the files, there isn't the hassle of uploading them individually and you can even download them all at once... and there's even a fancy album cover!

But yeah, Iam the kind of person who looks for commitment from those who sign up, to me there's no point in participating if you're the kind of person who "might upload something", "probably will vote" or "maybe someday will disclose his nickname".

The way this method works, it fuels itself. Doesn't matter if we're 10 or 100, it would work smoothly anyways for those who are willing to upload/vote/disclose.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2015 22:53:44