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ngiorgio

 

Posts: 168
Joined: Nov. 1 2005
From: Florida, USA

Strange rosette 

I have seen a lot of rosettes designs, but never anything quite like this. Any thoughts, opinions? http://www.ebay.com/itm/CLASSICAL-SPANISH-GUITAR-JUAN-MONTES-SPECIAL-FLAMENCO-NEGRA-RIO-ROSEWOOD-/161676758016?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25a4af8c00
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2015 15:27:56
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to ngiorgio

nice and fresh, would like to see more of these types of rosettes... Could be difficult to inlay though!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2015 16:32:43
 
Wayne Brown

 

Posts: 124
Joined: Oct. 22 2012
From: Huntersville, North Carolina, USA

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to tele

I believe that it is burned into the wood (pyrography). More than likely it is done with aid of a computer.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2015 19:02:41
 
ngiorgio

 

Posts: 168
Joined: Nov. 1 2005
From: Florida, USA

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to ngiorgio

Different, but not to my taste. Looks to me like a decal even though it probably is not. My preference would still be a mosaic rosette but have to say that the ones that Anders makes are very attractive.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2015 13:51:11
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to ngiorgio

Given that it is a factory guitar that is relatively inexpensive I suspect it is a decal. To burn that rosette would take a lot of time--hence, labor costs. On the other hand, if it is burned then time and money was not spent elsewhere. Interesting but not to my taste.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2015 15:11:23
 
ngiorgio

 

Posts: 168
Joined: Nov. 1 2005
From: Florida, USA

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to ngiorgio

How about this one, from same maker?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/JUAN-MONTES-CLASSICAL-SPANISH-ROMANTIC-GUITAR-Mod-FLAMENCO-NEGRA-ROSEWOOD-/161676905958?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25a4b1cde6
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2015 15:44:34
 
Wayne Brown

 

Posts: 124
Joined: Oct. 22 2012
From: Huntersville, North Carolina, USA

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to ngiorgio

Interesting, but not for me. All I can see is a repair headache.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2015 19:21:50
 
Flamingrae

 

Posts: 220
Joined: May 19 2009
 

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to Wayne Brown

I suspect it's lazer cut/etched. Not a huge job but setting the soundboard on the cutting base could be tricky. Once the design work is done - press a button and this will be done quite quickly. If you set the raster factor low this determines how much depth is cut. On the second one this is done away with and it will be cut. Obviously cleaning it up afterwards. My guess anyway. A whole avenue awaits for those with the time and soundboards to experiment - oh and a cutter with a big enough bed.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2015 20:09:57
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to ngiorgio

cnc stuff, a lot of steel string makers are using much more complicated designs. I think these two examples are both ugly but then I don't really care much about rosettes since they are nothing more than an ornament.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2015 22:16:35
 
estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to ngiorgio

John you seem in a particularly bad mood the past few posts. Are you following my lead on being an anti-social curmudgeon, or am I actually getting older and catching up to you?

I generally don't like to say bad things about other peoples guitars, and I seldom do comment on the aesthetics of makers who I think make poor style choices. In fact, it would be much faster to point to the small handful of makers that actually looked at old guitars and took the lesson to heart. But makers live in glass houses and guitar appreciators just sort out what they seem to like.

And rosettes are just ornamentation; a few purfling lines and the back plate behind the rosette stops cracks, but generally it's a decoration.

That said, this lazer burning soundhole mess is really about the worst thing I've ever seen. It almost makes me appreciate those disgusting premade rosettes.

______

This kind of lazer work can be contracted to the kind of shop that does lazer engraving on trophies and awards. You find a place that makes large lazer engraved plaques and they scan the design, throw the top into a box with computer guided lazer, move the cursor around a few times, and BLAM it spitters and sputters for 12 minutes and the engraving is done.

Not super artistic. Does not say anything personal or long lasting about the maker.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2015 1:38:24
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

John you seem in a particularly bad mood the past few posts. Are you following my lead on being an anti-social curmudgeon, or am I actually getting older and catching up to you?


No, not in a bad mood at all. It's spring on the Alsea and absolutely beautiful, we're getting ready to start our garden. Other than a minor problem with allergies this time of year makes one happy to be alive.

When I first started making guitars I ran across an interesting flamenco guitar from Spain. Although I don't remember the maker's name the one remarkable characteristic of this guitar was the lack of any rosette. I thought it looked cool. Something about minimalism I suppose but I kind of like the idea of throwing out everything that doesn't have a function.

Right now we're finishing up a couple of double body classics and a small batch of flamenco guitars most of which are already sold so business is gradually improving. After the last couple of years this is definitely a mood elevator.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2015 16:12:30
 
estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to ngiorgio

I'm glad everyone is having such a good time and getting so many commissions. I feel like committing suicide most of the time and now my videos are barred by the moderator. Guitar players can't tell the difference between good and bad rosettes so why bother? Everyone is so stupidly subjective there no reason to be artists to even care. Who gives **** anymore, I sure don't.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2015 23:52:51
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to ngiorgio

Hi Stephen
Are you ok?
Even though I often give the picture that I disagree with you, I actually care about what you write.
Not many comissions here, but since its been like that for years now, I´m getting used to it and just try to let go and enjoy all the spring flowers in the fields and the sun that is not to hot yet. It will be to hot soon, the flowers will disappear and grumpy Dane will close the shutters for a while before he goes travelling in cooler parts of the continent.

No comments on rosettes.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2015 7:38:34
 
Stephen Eden

 

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to ngiorgio

I'm the same as you John. I have just one rosette that I think will be pleasing to the eye but I don't put to much thought into it. All of my thought goes into sound production. I do get coersed into aesthetic refinment which does take a lot of time and adds nothing to sound but hopefully will add to my pocket! For me I find most people will choose a guitar for how it sounds rather than how it looks. I find it difficult to play a guitar and look at the rosette at the same time anyway.

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Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2015 10:58:58
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to ngiorgio

To follow Anders on this, Stephen, are you OK? I hope you were just joking about wanting to commit suicide. If not, use the forum or whatever resource works for you--suicide definitely is not a good avenue to persue and the ones left behind really suffer.

As to the rosette. If such a rosette is made via CNC would the tool up costs be high on something like this? I also wonder how many people would be turned off by such a rosette.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2015 13:00:24
 
estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to ngiorgio

I think suicide quite often now, but I doubt I'd follow through because my mother would be devastated. I really hate living in Japan, although I like most Japanese people one on one. I'm basically trapped here in a **** ass small town and I've been saying everything is hunky dory for two years, but the truth it sucks ass and it's ruined-ruining my career. And my family in the the US is largely unsympathetic and actually quite hostile. My father died while I was here and my family, siblings, would not help me get details and I did not have enough money to return and handle it myself. It's been terribly disturbing and I really dislike my family now because they won't listen to how much I need help. I told my step mother I felt suicidal and she said "Well just go to an embassy and ask to be repatriated."

Critical things my former girlfriends have said to me about my family have come into sharp focus after my dad died. I have better relationships with two ex girlfriends than with family.

blah blah blah, so yeah I'm an angry mother ****er right now. For 20 years I've been trying to get siblings to help me with my dad's heath issues and was rebuffed, but as soon as he dies they dumped it on me and said I'm a bad communicator. I spent a long winter digesting that.

Yeah I make fairly nice rosettes and I spent a lot of time thinking about how to extend the Spanish tradition while still staying on the "inside" so excuse me when I say after putting my time in I think most of these non Spanish style rosettes stink to high heaven and look like crap.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2015 13:56:10
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to keith

quote:

ORIGINAL: keith
As to the rosette. If such a rosette is made via CNC would the tool up costs be high on something like this? I also wonder how many people would be turned off by such a rosette.

Keith,
I am totally unqualified to discuss CNC but from what I've read on the mostly steel string guitar fora the cost has come down precipitously in recent years. The advantage is that CNC can also be used to rough out necks, bridges, fingerboards, shape heads and heels, do complex inlay, etc. so the payback in time saved is very real. If I were younger I would probably persue this avenue with the hope of producing a really inexpensive, high quality guitar for players who can't afford to drop a lot of cash on an instrument.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2015 14:24:50
 
SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014
 

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to estebanana

Stephen,

My heart goes out for you. That old saying is so true: "You can pick your nose, but you can't pick your relatives." And never let ex-girlfriends influence your feeling self worth. They are history.

You have a brilliant mind and a fabulous sense of humor. Stand aside for a moment and look what you have done. Your guitars are one of the best I ever heard! If I was a luthier, I would want to study under you.

If you have to judge yourself, then judge yourself on what you - yourself has done. Not, by how others affect you.

Now, cook you up some cornbread and blackeyed peas and enjoy something truly worth while in life.

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Rick
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2015 16:47:26
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I think suicide quite often now, but I doubt I'd follow through because my mother would be devastated. I really hate living in Japan, although I like most Japanese people one on one. I'm basically trapped here in a **** ass small town and I've been saying everything is hunky dory for two years, but the truth it sucks ass and it's ruined-ruining my career.

Stephan,
My first trip out of the US lasted about 3 months. When I was kicked out of the Peace Corps and sent home I was happy as a clam. As much as I enjoyed the people and customs of S. America I realized that I was a US citizen through and through. Since then I've never once thought of living anywhere but the US. Figure out a way to get home and make it happen. Anything is better than being depressed and cut off from your compatriots. When you get home come up to the Alsea and sit on my porch with a glass of bourbon and we can both curse the day we were born .

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2015 18:01:31
 
Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I feel like committing suicide most of the time and now my videos are barred by the moderator


Not true as I explained to you. R. Diaz is all over YouTube and it's really hard to find the time in a 15 hour day of work to code more logic to keep him out of even your YouTube channel. Sorry you're going through a hard time - they come to a lot of us but most of the time they pass.

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2015 19:02:19
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to ngiorgio

Though discussing important things like politics or art with Stephen drives me through the cealing in minutes, I am sincerely sorry to hear about the depressing situation.

The more as I think to know too well how that is.
Me has ended up in an even worse part of Asia, enduring daily terror of highly aggressive cave men (awaiting court next month, accussed of having broken someone´s jaw / threatened to pay some 30 grands) and the remains of my family in Germany, namely two sisters who after mother´s passing have turned out to be true lowly human nightmare. Just scum.

And I´m stuck as well / totally homesick.
Now, any ordinary thing I see on homeland TV makes me crave. Be it just how folks there can live vastly unmolested and to a degree in the way they wish, or ordinary little items like the wide palette of food and drink, etc ...

And in the darkest moments there is a thought of how a last resort could be suicide. However not really, for the fact that a better future could always be possible.

Here is to a better chance! :O)

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2015 19:08:07
 
Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I'm basically trapped here in a **** ass small town and I've been saying everything is hunky dory for two years, but the truth it sucks ass and it's ruined-ruining my career


Families can be really tough, especially when you are living abroad. Similar thing happened to me with my Dad, but I was only in Spain so could afford to get back for the funeral. Not before my sibling's family had been through the house looking for the will and burning his diaries because he didn't write nice things about them i.e. being blatantly used as free babysitters, how her kids were so very intelligent because an IQ of 100 must be a really high score, bigging it up with me for bringing him a sandwich every day like she was Florence ****ing Nightingale and I was clearly an absent, errant son. I lost a child some years ago, but she never thinks on other people's **** in her eternal quest for unearned money and baseless praise - I have come to feel deeply sorry for her in her debt-ridden dotage. But it took a long time.

My Dad funded the video gear for "El Guitarrero" - he liked that kind of thing. Miss the old, but very cool, curmudgeon

You have stated your problem with your location, now you have to address it. If I can help, just let me know by PM, please. I had enough of not being able to help over dear Ron, it's not a nice feeling (maybe a Skype rant would help?) I'm always up for one of those Let me know.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2015 19:08:15
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to ngiorgio

Stephen, hang in there... and take up Escribano's offer to rant out those feelings of wanting to harm yourself.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2015 19:22:38
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to ngiorgio

Stephen,
family behaves really neurotic and ilogical in crisis situations. Frustrations are being thrown directly in face of other family members. Thats very typical. Its like you are allowed to behave in that way inside the family and not outside.
Try not to take it personal even though its thrown in your face and if it continues, cut the relationship at least for a while.
My late wife died of Motor neurone desease (ALS) It was horrible, but it was even worse having to live with her familys way of dealing with the process. They were SOOO negative during 2 years. So when Sole died the first thing I did was to cut with them. I didnt say a word (not typical me!!) I just cut. I keep contact with her two grown up kids and we are very good, but the rest... Out. (personas non grata)

Remember their behaviour towards you, doesnt nescessarily have to have anything to do with you. Maybe you are just the easy one to pick on because you are in a complicated situation and because they feel bad they dont know what else to do.

For me its ok to talk out loud about suicide. I have no problems with suicide. Its a personal matter IMHO and I respect it. But remember that for others, it really make the alarm sound very loud and are you sure you want that? People act very strange when someone wants to kill him/herself.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2015 21:46:10
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to keith

quote:

Stephen, hang in there...


Given the situation, that's not good advice.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2015 22:06:08
 
ngiorgio

 

Posts: 168
Joined: Nov. 1 2005
From: Florida, USA

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to ngiorgio

Yeah, hang may not the best word. Even though the phrase itself is quite innocent
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2015 23:55:17
 
estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to ngiorgio

Simon,
I'll take you up on the Skype rant, well, my personality is much different off line, I am fairly cogent and calm.

My dad was a promising artist, he was considered among the best by his teachers and peers group, who were the the top artists in Los Angeles and the San Francisco in the '60's. I'm still friends with a few of them. He began using drugs pretty early on and in stead of moving forward into what would have been a brilliant career, he spiraled into a bad life. But he continued to work and had periods of being clean and productive.

What really got me was when I was in art school he went on run and got pretty strung out of control and did not pay the storage fee for where he kept his body of work. He lost it and it was tragic for him. Strange for me, as by chance the scoundrels who bought the work at the auction of his lots located me and confused me for him. They approached me as an art student thinking the work was mine and asked me to endorse them selling the work to galleries. In other words will you become our partner in selling your work, which you through neglect had lost. I told them is was fathers work and I'd like to have it back but they refused and told me I could market prices or a huge lump sum for the body of work. I told the family what had happened and they seemed not to care and would not help me acquire any of the work.

Eventually I lost track of the guys who held the work and I don't know what became of it. Over the years I tried to track it down when I did have some cash hoping to buy back a piece here there, but I lost the trail. My dad never recovered from the loss and he continued to track into his later state of living on and off the street due to his extreme drug habit. I used to see him ...well long terrible stories I won't go into.

Eventually he had to go into care program, he had by that time gotten to mid level of dementia and had Hep-C. He was more far gone than I thought when I left California and he was covering up how far his dementia had progressed, it was difficult for me to tell. Last spring I got an email from the police saying he had gone missing for his care facility and I asked members of my family to check into it, but they dismissed it and did not act, leaving me to correspond with a police officer until he was finally found. It was a clerical error, but still the family could care less. As soon as he died he was lionized by the same contingent who could not have been bothered to check in on him, and frankly I was sickened and disgusted to my core. I had been asking for help with the situation for 20 years and finally backed away to save my own skin. I realized fully something I had not wanted to really think about, and that is that many members of my family placed me as the go between, the family representative so to speak to deal with my dad and report back, but they would never get personally involved. My past long term girlfriends had observed this and warned me, but it was difficult to see in the moment.

He was a terrifically flawed person and a huge burden at times, but as my best friend Ed Lopez says, you got the best part of that guy. Recently I heard an interview with Phillip Glass where he talks about death and art; he says, I paraphrase, he stopped thinking of death as the end of an artistic lineage, but as the transference of an art form or line of thought into the future. The art may change from person to person, I think he implies, but that a transmission of the ability to carry out the work occurs in some way. I think there is something to this, and while it is cold comfort, there really is no other kind of comfort. I can only hope my dad was thinking the same thing and that it gave him some hope.

It's difficult sometimes as a maker of things, objects, instruments to hold back an not let bad work trigger a sarcastic verbal response. Those who put in the time and spend all that alone time looking, reading and thinking while they make artistic works see things differently than the casual or part time observer and it is difficult to have patience with inferior work once you go past the boundaries for what is normal looking and seeing.

But I don't think it's any different than science or perhaps selling insurance or aerospace design; specialists understand more and have a capacity to see deeper into a problem than a non specialist. Only with art subjectivity comes into play and you have to careful passing judgement on what another person likes, even if it sucks. Some artisans/artists makers do the bare minimum artistically to get away with selling a form of art and other simply can't stop at that. I think that is what Glass was talking about, the transmission of the state of being that will question the art and shake everything out of it possible before giving it up to the public. Some of us are that person, and some not.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2015 23:55:38
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to ngiorgio

Stephen, I used the phrase, colloquially understood to mean a positive attribute, and was not suggesting anything other than that. I hope that intent came through and I apologize if it did not.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 22 2015 7:49:59
 
SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014
 

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

My late wife died of Motor neurone desease (ALS) It was horrible


Anders,

You are one hell of man. What you went through, most people can't relate to.

My wife's cousin died recently from ALS. I saw how the frustration affects not only the victim, but the family.

At her funeral the priest turned to her husband and said: "Jim, you stuck with her to the bitter end. You paid the price. For richer or poorer, sickness and health. You stood by her." That's when I broke down.
You and Jim had your character ultimately tested. I would like to say I would do the same. But, you never know until the time comes.

So, Anders...I am very sorry to hear about your late wife and will always admire how you stood by her.

_____________________________

Rick
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 22 2015 14:54:34
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Strange rosette (in reply to ngiorgio

Well, thanks for your kind words. Its very appreciated. I would have liked to hear that from a couple of other persons, but I only got critisism from them.

But life goes on and I´m glad I was there all the way through and that I sat there holding her hands when she "disappeared". But lets say... ALS is a very steep learning curve. You are always way behind the desease and most peoples reaction is frustration or they simply disappear. All of Sole´s "friends" disappeared during the last 6 month.

Well, now we are really out of topic.... What was the original post about?????
Ahhh, strange rosettes..... No comments.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 23 2015 7:28:39
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