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Musical Knowledge
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Musical Knowledge (in reply to Sr. Martins)
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quote:
Has anyone noticed that guitar players are the stereotype for the "theory is bad for your creativity"?
I don't know any other art form where people would advocate that it's better to not study what others have done before you, know the rudiments of each style....
At the risk of sounding pedantic and nitpicky, and perhaps of being "off the reservation" entirely, I would pose this question, Sr. Martins: Are you sure you are not conflating two different things when you speak of "theory" and studying "what others have done before you, knowing the rudiments of each style, etc"? It seems to me that musical theory and studying what blues, jazz, and other genres of guitar playing have accomplished in the past are two different things. Or am I wrong?
Just bringing up a thought for which, if I am wrong, I would gladly stand corrected.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Apr. 11 2015 20:58:58
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Musical Knowledge (in reply to Sr. Martins)
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quote:
We see a guy playing all the cool licks at warp speed on guitar and still have no idea if he's into studying music or if he's just a guitarhero (game)/tab/fingerings kind of player.
If he's playing as well as you describe him above, to the point where you can't tell if he's into studying music or not, does it matter? If he's playing that well, what difference does it make?
Were many of the old-time blues guitarists, such as Big Bill Broonzy, Robert Johnson, Furry Lewis, Blind Lemon Jefferson, Blind Willie McTell, and others into studying music and learning theory? Or did they learn to play without learning much of the theory, but they played so damn well that we still appreciate their playing today?
I think I understand what you're driving at, and obviously it is a burr under your saddle. But again, my question is, if they are "playing all the cool licks at warp speed on guitar" (to quote you above), what difference does it make whether or not they studied "music" or "theory." I don't think your analogy of a "photographer" grabbing a phone to "point and shoot" applies with regard to guitarists such as those listed above, or those of other genres who play well (not just "point and shoot") but might not have studied much music or theory, if they studied it at all.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Apr. 12 2015 19:05:36
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Musical Knowledge (in reply to Sr. Martins)
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quote:
You clearly don't get it and I think there's no way for you to get it.. mostly because you don't want to, honestly.
Oh, I get it alright, Sr. Martins. Don't flatter yourself by thinking I don't understand what you're driving at. I understand very well what your driving at. What I am doing is questioning the basic premise of your comment.
It seems to upset you when someone disagrees with, or questions, your comments. Rather than engage a different point of view, you conveniently avoid such discussion by dismissing any question or disagreement as "not getting it."
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Apr. 12 2015 19:30:06
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: Musical Knowledge (in reply to BarkellWH)
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While there are some great players that did not learn much theory, if any , Django comes to mind .. I think that the artical in question is erroneous and slightly misguided ..
I do not know any guitarists that are any good that have no working knowledge of music , or that say these inane and asinine phrases , or that even think they may be ''cool'' to admit ignorance about their fav. topic ... it seems a bit self destructive to me .
For my own part , i went to music college for my degree , and worked for many years in Jazz .. . in that world you would not earn much if you could not read , write , arrange and play etc... it can actually get very cut throat at times ., especially in the studios ...
Perhaps you are more in with the younger crowd or teenagers ,, it sounds like it could be their sort of thing ,, but believe me as they get older and if they want to progress and become curious as to why some people can understand certain things very quickly and they cant .. a certain amount of theory will become more important to them ..
Unless this topic is proven to include a vast preponderance, and not just a small percentage of guitarists , it may be difficult to successfully progress.
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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Apr. 12 2015 19:50:22
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Sr. Martins
Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
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RE: Musical Knowledge (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
It seems to upset you when someone disagrees with, or questions, your comments. Rather than engage a different point of view, you conveniently avoid such discussion by dismissing any question or disagreement as "not getting it."
What "bothers" me is your willingness to make matters more complicated and redundant than what they should be, thus inviting more variables and frustration to what could be a fun and revealing talk.
quote:
Unless this topic is proven to include a vast preponderance, and not just a small percentage of guitarists , it may be difficult to successfully progress.
Totally agree with that. In fact, after posting the question here I thought "Hmm.. maybe a composers forum would have been a better idea".
Like it or not, nowadays guitarists are filling the "dumb ass musician" role. In my opinion it also has a lot to do with the guitar being a popular instrument among genres that also evolved from a "monkey see monkey do" kind of thing without too much thought or analysis applied to it. Blues, rock and folk are among these simplistic genres.
OTOH, guitar players have been propagating the myth that knowledge is like a recipe and that music theory tells you what to do and all that bullcrap... and since the guitar is such a popular instrument, people assume that a guitar player is also a musician like any other and follow what they say... some don't even know what the notes are called or where they are on the guitar. Some even take pride on not knowing chords by their names.
Someone who doesn't know music won't have much ability to appreciate and distinguish the ideas and materials put into a composition, much less to emulate them and apply them beyond the "monkey see..." methodology.
To me, a music lover who refuses to study music is called "a listener".
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Date Apr. 12 2015 20:23:59
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Escribano
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
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RE: Musical Knowledge (in reply to Sr. Martins)
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You're right, there have been so many "dumb ass musicians" that didn't study theory or read music. Hendrix, Page, Clapton, B.B. King, John Lennon, Elvis, SRV, Angus Young, Van Halen, Slash, Tony Iommi and Robert Johnson to name but a few. Losers, the lot of them. 
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Date Apr. 12 2015 20:50:44
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Sr. Martins
Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
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RE: Musical Knowledge (in reply to Escribano)
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quote:
You're right, there have been so many "dumb ass musicians" that didn't study theory or read music. Hendrix, Page, Clapton, B.B. King, John Lennon, Elvis, SRV, Angus Young, Van Halen, Slash, Tony Iommi and Robert Johnson to name but a few. Losers, the lot of them.
And your point is.. what?
Is music a popularity contest? Is musicianship measured by sales?
If you needed someone to write and orchestrate a barroque-style piece for string quartet for a movie you were making, which one of the names you mentioned would you call for the job?
Seriously, I don't understand why would anyone be proud of his lack of knowledge about what he calls his passion.
BTW, Iam not the one who turned guitar players into the "dumb instrumentists who call themselves musicians" category, Iam only asking why you think this happened. Iam sure the amount of violinists/trumpetists/cellists/harpists/whateverists who claim (brag) to have no musical knowledge isn't enough to make them the chosen ones for this category.
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Date Apr. 12 2015 21:01:01
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Escribano
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
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RE: Musical Knowledge (in reply to Sr. Martins)
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quote:
BTW, Iam not the one who turned guitar players into the "dumb instrumentists who call themselves musicians" category, Iam only asking why you think this happened.
Within the genres we are talking about (blues, rock, folk, country etc.) it is because they evolved from pretty simple folk that listened, copied, innovated and ultimately entertained, based on what they heard elsewhere. They didn't read many books on it, or go to university to study it. They listened to the radio, records, tv and now the Web. They wanted to escape the monotony (or even poverty) of their lives. Simple as that.
Those kind of people will take the path with the least whiff of academia. If they make a platinum disc in the process, who are you to begrudge them that? If they are crap and trying to pass it off, then I don't care, but if they are still learning... well.
p.s. the guitar is very pattern and harmonically friendly, all other things aside. I never found the piano that way. Perhaps it is the different ergonomic action of each hand?
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Date Apr. 12 2015 22:05:22
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Sr. Martins
Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
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RE: Musical Knowledge (in reply to Escribano)
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quote:
Within the genres we are talking about (blues, rock, folk, country etc.) it is because they evolved from pretty simple folk that listened, copied, innovated and ultimately entertained, based on what they heard elsewhere. They didn't read many books on it, or go to university to study it. They listened to the radio, records, tv and now the Web. They wanted to escape the monotony (or even poverty) of their lives. Simple as that.
Those kind of people will take the path with the least whiff of academia. If they make a platinum disc in the process, who are you to begrudge them that? If they are crap and trying to pass it off, then I don't care, but if they are still learning... well.
p.s. the guitar is very pattern and harmonically friendly, all other things aside. I never found the piano that way. Perhaps it is the different ergonomic action of each hand?
I agree with your observations and I've mentioned some of them myself.
I don't know where you got the idea that we're talking "blues, folk, etc", that was merely an example of genres where the "phenomena" is understandable and plausible.
@BarkellWH
Could you read the last link I posted?
Good music is highly subjective and doesn't even help this topic. Doesn't it puzzle you that all the "good music" as you say which was made by the musicians cited by Simon are all playing pretty much the same genre and the same musical material within the same forms? How's that for originality and "playing what you feel"... a huge coincidence?
Please, don't mistake strumming a guitar with being a musician.
How often do you visit music forums related to other instruments besides guitar and other genres besides blues and flamenco? Maybe that's the reason why you don't see any evidence.
A "gross generalization" would be if you were to consider that everyone who sings in the shower is a musician.
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Date Apr. 12 2015 22:52:55
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Sr. Martins
Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
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RE: Musical Knowledge (in reply to Ruphus)
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@Ruphus
Nice insight there but I think that it is leaning too much towards the music theory debate, which is something that always pulls us away from the topic at hand.
Another thing besides what has already been mentioned about the guitar (popularity, the characteristics of the genres to which it is strongly linked, "pattern friendly", etc), I think we could add the rockstar effect to it.
Rock guitarists became pop culture icons (anyone heard of Slash?) and are "exploited" as such through the media, which means that they reach a wide audience.. and what they say does too! Adding up to this we have games like Guitar Hero where, as you can guess, it's all about rock bands...and you play as a rock guitarist, who 95% of the time is someone who says "I just place my fingers where they want to go". (Oh, and the game itself is like animated tabs where you press some colored buttons or something...)
Well, my point here is... maybe culture itself (and the industry) play a big role into the "guitar player mentality" as a stereotype (@BarkellWH, want it or not, this prejudice against guitar players DOES exist on the internet, practice rooms, studios and stages... it is NOT something that I made up).
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Date Apr. 13 2015 0:21:49
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Musical Knowledge (in reply to Sr. Martins)
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quote:
If people engage in the debate, that must mean that they understand (or at least make an effort to) and think there is a valid point.
Then why don't you engage in the debate with those with whom you disagree? I have engaged in the debate, offering a different perspective than that proposed by you. Yet you refuse to engage with anyone, including me, with whom you disagree. Your attitude that you are "right" and everyone with whom you disagree "doesn't get it" (to quote an earlier post by you) appears to be a cop-out. There are several posters who have disagreed with you besides me, including Kiko and Simon. Yet you persist in your position without offering a defense. That is no debate at all.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 13 2015 0:50:59
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