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Filip

 

Posts: 297
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano 

Hi all,

I am trying to learn some falsetas from Bronce Gitano by Sabicas. In fact, I've got most of the falsetas I wanted, but the last one is giving me a headache :) I would appreciate if someone would point me to what I got wrong about it.

If I am right, the compas goes as follows: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
So the first falseta (0:14) starts on 1.

The falseta I want to finish with (2:03) also starts on 1, right?
Then, the the part at 2:21 starts on 7 (this is where I wanted to stop and put something else instead of continuing), the part at 2:34 also on 7, and finally the same falseta from the beginning of the song (0:14 and 2:40) does not start again on 1 but on 7, or at least this is how I understand it.

So, anyone has a clue what did I get wrong?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2015 15:32:17
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1765
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

quote:

So, anyone has a clue what did I get wrong?


Nothing: there’s a half-compás in there (naughty Sabicas, naughty!)

What you can do is repeat the first half-compás of the falseta (from the F7 arpeggio to the Am arpeggio) to give you one complete compás. The remainder of the falseta takes up one more compás, and Bingo!

The run at the end of the piece (the one that goes up the fingerboard) may give you trouble too, if you get that far. The secret is, it's in quintuplets.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2015 19:43:04
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

Assuming we are talking about the same recording...

The falseta at 2 min is triplet based...at 2:11 occurs the half compas phrase (G7/B->C chords)...the next phrase starting at 2:13 should be considered "1" of the 12 count compas. THe rest all lines up properly.

in case anyone is working from the old joseph trotter book, this is on page 66 end of third line going to first bar of 4th line.

If you want to fix it so it is all 12's, I would personally insert the same type if triplet phrase moving from C9-F, (melody top note resolving D-C on the second string) then continue the phrase starting at 2:13.

hope that helps

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2015 14:13:14
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1765
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Assuming we are talking about the same recording...


One of the minor things I like about Sabas is that when he bothered to give his pieces titles (which mostly he did), he seems to have tried to keep them unique*. This makes it fairly easy to identify the contents of all the anthologies that are now proliferating like rabbits.

quote:

in case anyone is working from the old joseph trotter book, this is on page 66


That was the first thing I looked at. Too bad it’s out of print.

*One possible oversight:

Zambra «El Albaicín»» (from Solo Flamenco)
Farruca «El Albaicín» (from Concierto en Flamenco)

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2015 17:06:29
 
Filip

 

Posts: 297
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

Aaah, half-compas, so that is the thing!!! Honestly, I did not even know you can do that, now everything is much more clear.

Ricardo, I think we are talking about different recordings. But I'm listening to one other now (CD Flamenco Puro) and there I understand what you said.

Thank you guys for the comments. I will continue to work on the piece and hopefully I can share the recording with you soon.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2015 20:13:29
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

Yes flamenco puro is where I found the solea called "bronce gitano" as you describe it seems to be the same spot where there is the half compas anomaly (you are correct it is normally considered wrong to do this but it happens in guitar solos only...and in extremely rare cases of cante accompaniment from the old days).

2 curious things...1. if not flamenco puro which album are you talking about? and 2. is what I described the same falseta or it's coincidental half compas situation???

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2015 20:58:44
 
Filip

 

Posts: 297
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

Hi Ricardo,

I was talking about the recording I put below this message, in fact it's similar if not the same as Flamenco Puro one, except that it is a couple of second off. That's why it fits, but still the timing you mentioned is not quite correct in this recording as it is in Flamenco Puro.
So yes, we are talking about the same falseta.

About making these falsetas fit, if I understood everything well, I could finish the half-compass by adding another one but there is actually no need to do so, so I could for example play everything until 2:17*, and then continue with falseta from 1:05. Would it be correct?

*I refer to the exact timing in Flamenco Puro now

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2015 14:04:09
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1765
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

quote:

if I understood everything well, I could finish the half-compass by adding another one but there is actually no need to do so


It all depends on what you mean by "need"

• In my young days, I once pointed out to Paco Peña that one of Sabicas’s falsetas was out of compás. He replied “You would not dare to raise your voice to tell Sabicas that he is out of compás! He knows the compás backward and forwards. If he is out of compás, it is because he wants to be” . Which is of course true.

• On the other hand, when Paco recorded the Montoya/Ricardo CD, he put the out-of-compás stuff back in.

I must say that personally, I would put it back in, as hearing stuff that’s out always irritates me*.

But you can suit yourself; you’ve got a good defence either way.

*Although half-compases are very common in bulerías and fandangos de Huelva.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2015 16:23:24
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

quote:

ORIGINAL: Filip

Hi Ricardo,

I was talking about the recording I put below this message, in fact it's similar if not the same as Flamenco Puro one, except that it is a couple of second off. That's why it fits, but still the timing you mentioned is not quite correct in this recording as it is in Flamenco Puro.
So yes, we are talking about the same falseta.

About making these falsetas fit, if I understood everything well, I could finish the half-compass by adding another one but there is actually no need to do so, so I could for example play everything until 2:17*, and then continue with falseta from 1:05. Would it be correct?

*I refer to the exact timing in Flamenco Puro now




Got it...so my recording is shifted so in your clip the same spot I said was 2:11 is at 2:13.

So going to 2:17 and then cut to 1:05 to continue...I think you have the math correct interms of 12 beats, but musically speaking it doesn't work IMO. The reason is at 2:17 not only are we not resolved (it goes from E7/G#- Am) but we are also in mid phrase going somewhere else. At 1:05 is a remate (resolves to E) and then the next part is not a falseta, it is compas strumming.

What it all comes down to is as I said, the G7-C is the half compas out of place thing that needs to be delt with. If you don't want to add music (as I suggested) then you must simply omit this part (2:13-2:15).

My final suggestion would be to replace what happens at 2:15 with what he plays at 2:06, to better resolve the phrase.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2015 5:32:52
 
Filip

 

Posts: 297
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

quote:

In my young days, I once pointed out to Paco Peña that one of Sabicas’s falsetas was out of compás. He replied “You would not dare to raise your voice to tell Sabicas that he is out of compás! He knows the compás backward and forwards. If he is out of compás, it is because he wants to be” . Which is of course true.

Interesting :)

I understand, the thing I wanted to do is fine with compas but not quite "musical".
I tried to avoid the part from 2:17, but then doing what you Ricardo suggested (getting back at 2:06) does not give me an idea of how to end the falseta.

I will try to think of something (maybe after all I continue with the part form 2:17 and finish the falseta as original recording).

P.S. I feel I should mention that my musical education and knowledge is quite poor :( So I don't fully understand everything you say about the chords and resolving. But still, you've been of great help and now it's is my turn to put some effort :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2015 21:17:27
 
Filip

 

Posts: 297
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

Hi once again,

So I basically put together a few falsetas that I wanted to, and I practiced for quite some time with a metronome. However, I have another doubt.

When I listen to Sabicas, it seems to me that not all the falsetas are played in the same tempo, that some are slower and others are faster (like picados).
This is strange to me because I thought that if one plays in compas at X bpm, one should play the whole piece at x bpm.
So which of the two observations is wrong?

Thanks a lot!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2015 21:39:58
 
cantejondo38

 

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RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

It's basically Sabicas displaying his virtuosity with his picados which is why those parts are at faster tempo.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2015 22:30:48
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

quote:

ORIGINAL: Filip

Hi once again,

So I basically put together a few falsetas that I wanted to, and I practiced for quite some time with a metronome. However, I have another doubt.

When I listen to Sabicas, it seems to me that not all the falsetas are played in the same tempo, that some are slower and others are faster (like picados).
This is strange to me because I thought that if one plays in compas at X bpm, one should play the whole piece at x bpm.
So which of the two observations is wrong?

Thanks a lot!



Honestly, any and all palos can have an "elastic tempo"...even when accompanying, but especially in guitar solos. When you have palmas or percussion (including foot work or castañuelas) you have to keep a more strict tempo or you will be out of compas relatively speaking. Sabicas liked to speed up and slow down even with buleria....EVEN when there were palmas. But he did it deliberately with taste. Check archives for "elastic compas" discussions, there have been many.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2015 16:28:02
 
Filip

 

Posts: 297
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

Thanks a lot for replies.

Honestly, I feel quite ashamed, I listen to flamenco for a bit more than a decade and I never realised you can have elastic tempo (though I never payed any attention until now on exact tempo and anyway I do it as a hobby, but I don't have an excuse ).

So basically I can play 12 beats at 120 bpm and then 12 beasts at 140 bpm or vice versa and it is fine, as long as I play all 120 and 140 beats exactly at that tempo.
And I imagine I can change tempo in the middle of 12 beat, for example play 1 2 3 4 5 6 in 120 and then run for example 7 8 9 10 11 12 picado or arpegio, right?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2015 20:51:14
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3246
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

One of the things I enjoy about sabicas's elastic tempo is that it seems so often to be "danceable." His accelerandos and decelerandos are gradual--but not too gradual--and follow the melodic and harmonic logic of the falseta. I have long thought it might have resulted in part from his long association with the magnificent dancer Carmen Amaya.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2015 21:59:29
 
Mark2

Posts: 1734
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

I agree with Richard in that playing for dance trains you to speed up when the dancer does. I remember the first time I played for a professional dancer and she took off. I had been playing for her students but was not prepared for the tempo she reached. I was like "WHAT? Are you kidding?" When they reach top speed having palmas really helps the guitarists hang on. But after you become familiar with the steps, it becomes easier regardless. Filip if you have the opportunity to play for dance classes and in particular, the teacher, these compas issues will all be cleared up in due time.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2015 23:15:32
 
Filip

 

Posts: 297
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

I can imagine that. And I was told by sever people up to now that playing for dancers is a very good way to learn, unfortunately I didn't have the opportunity.

I read some of the post related to elastic compass, quite interesting things!

Thanks once again to all of you.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 22 2015 9:19:49
 
Filip

 

Posts: 297
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

After a while I decided to work again on this piece, I had a number of falsetas at some point but forgot them by now so I want to refresh my memory.

I am kind of stuck at the picado (see video below), actually my perfectionism side wants to get it, well, perfectly correct. So I am watching the video while doing it and comparing to some notes that I have, and I think I am one note short in the picado compared to the video (yikes)! To complete it I can put for example a G# on the 6th string as I've seen some people do it in other videos, but it seems to me that that it is not what Sabicas is doing in the video below.
Here is what I have so far:

-------------0--1--3--4--3--1--0----------------------------------------------------
---0--1--3--------------------------3--1--0-----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------2--0-----------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------3--2--0-------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------3--2--0---------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------3--1--0-----

Anyone can help here, which note am I missing with respect to the video below?

https://youtu.be/syQFg6k4nHM?t=4415
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2022 19:21:06
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1765
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

I haven’t tried to transcribe the video; but in Joseph Trotter’s transcription from the LP (Flamenco Puro), the first note is a C held over (i.e. tied) from the one in the previous F chord. This puts it in compás (24 notes).

I have found his transcriptions to be extremely accurate. For instance, in the final run that goes up the fingerboard, his transcription is in quintuplets, which is in perfect compás; whereas that of Juan de la Mata is in triplets, which isn’t.

Hope this helps.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 15 2022 16:35:37
 
Paul Magnussen

 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 15 2022 16:44:20
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 15 2022 16:43:02
 
kitarist

Posts: 1551
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

quote:

ORIGINAL: Filip

After a while I decided to work again on this piece, I had a number of falsetas at some point but forgot them by now so I want to refresh my memory.

I am kind of stuck at the picado (see video below), actually my perfectionism side wants to get it, well, perfectly correct. So I am watching the video while doing it and comparing to some notes that I have, and I think I am one note short in the picado compared to the video (yikes)! To complete it I can put for example a G# on the 6th string as I've seen some people do it in other videos, but it seems to me that that it is not what Sabicas is doing in the video below.
Here is what I have so far:

-------------0--1--3--4--3--1--0----------------------------------------------------
---0--1--3--------------------------3--1--0-----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------2--0-----------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------3--2--0-------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------3--2--0---------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------3--1--0-----

Anyone can help here, which note am I missing with respect to the video below?

https://youtu.be/syQFg6k4nHM?t=4415



-------------0--1--3--4--3--1--0-------------------------------------------------------
---0--1--3--------------------------3--1--0---------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------2--0---------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------3--2--1--0-------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------3--2--0----------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------3--1--0------

You are missing the D# as shown above in bold red; the run on the 4th string is chromatic. To my ear all 24 notes are sixteenths (four per "beat") starting on beat 4 for six beats, and finishing on 6th string E beat 10.

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2022 8:00:50
 
Filip

 

Posts: 297
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

I haven’t tried to transcribe the video; but in Joseph Trotter’s transcription from the LP (Flamenco Puro), the first note is a C held over (i.e. tied) from the one in the previous F chord. This puts it in compás (24 notes).


Correct, I have Joseph Trotter’s transcription and saw that. The thing that was confusing to me is that in the transcription there is one picado note less compared to the video, so the picado itself is 25 notes in the video.

So I indeed hear in the video something similar to what Konstantin says, an extra note comparing to Trotter’s transcription. And I am still confused because I don't see Sabicas playing that D# on the 4th string when slowdown to 0.25, his index finger looks way above the string at that moment.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2022 14:05:52
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

quote:

So I indeed hear in the video something similar to what Konstantin says, an extra note comparing to Trotter’s transcription. And I am still confused because I don't see Sabicas playing that D# on the 4th string when slowdown to 0.25, his index finger looks way above the string at that moment.


on the recording of Bronce Gitano on Flamenco Puro it's what Konstantin said, a D# on 1st fret of 4th string added to descending phrygian scale. I'm not 100% sure but I think in the video (i.e. live film excerpt in PDL documentary) he is adding a G# on the 1st fret of the 3rd string instead.

I looked at a few of the tracks in trotter, i think the tarantas and alegrias, it was a while ago. My impression was that they were in the ballpark, but not 100% accurate.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2022 15:36:59
 
kitarist

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RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

quote:

I don't see Sabicas playing that D# on the 4th string when slowdown to 0.25, his index finger looks way above the string at that moment.


The problem with the video is that the video and audio signals are not in sync. This could explain you not seeing it? It is definitely there on the audio portion. OR, another explanation could be that the audio is NOT from the video, i.e. the audio is the studio recording combined with the video.

EDIT: I just remembered that I had to put my capo on 3rd to match the pitch even though in the video Sabicas has his on 2nd - which I found very odd. But thinking about it now, this may further support the idea that the audio is not from the video but from the studio record.

EDIT 2: Watched the video without sound, and Mark is right - from visual inspection he plays the G# (chromatic on 3rd string) instead; but that's not what the audio is which is definitely chromatic on 4th with D#. So I am guessing it is a studio audio overlaid on the video footage of Sabicas playing the same piece with a slight variation.

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2022 20:00:05
 
Filip

 

Posts: 297
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

Yeah, I think you are right. Looking at the video and listening the sound separately, I see how the difference fits. Thanks guys, I'll go with the D# on the 4th string.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2022 21:11:55
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

I don't see Sabicas playing that D# on the 4th string when slowdown to 0.25, his index finger looks way above the string at that moment.


The problem with the video is that the video and audio signals are not in sync. This could explain you not seeing it? It is definitely there on the audio portion. OR, another explanation could be that the audio is NOT from the video, i.e. the audio is the studio recording combined with the video.

EDIT: I just remembered that I had to put my capo on 3rd to match the pitch even though in the video Sabicas has his on 2nd - which I found very odd. But thinking about it now, this may further support the idea that the audio is not from the video but from the studio record.

EDIT 2: Watched the video without sound, and Mark is right - from visual inspection he plays the G# (chromatic on 3rd string) instead; but that's not what the audio is which is definitely chromatic on 4th with D#. So I am guessing it is a studio audio overlaid on the video footage of Sabicas playing the same piece with a slight variation.


Good catch. I personally do the G# not the Eb, it makes more musical sense. Also I prefer G# to G natural on the bottom, it sounds more cadential.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 19 2022 15:38:54
 
Filip

 

Posts: 297
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

quote:

I personally do the G# not the Eb


For me G# is for some reason easier to play now that I try it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 19 2022 23:05:25
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Compas doubts in Bronce Gitano (in reply to Filip

quote:

ORIGINAL: Filip

quote:

I personally do the G# not the Eb


For me G# is for some reason easier to play now that I try it.


It has more symmetry at high speed, the right hand sees 3+3+3+3 across the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th strings. Rather than the D# version that gives the RH the tricker, 3+2+4+3 situation.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2022 16:32:07
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