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BRACING / STRUT PATTERNS
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Armando
Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland
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RE: BRACING / STRUT PATTERNS (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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quote:
I would like to know if there are many variations of strut patterns, and in particular for flamenco guitars. If so, which is best? Hi JBASHORUN Welcome in the club. I have recently finished my second flamenca blanca as well. Pictures and videoclips will be availlable soon on my website. Let me give you some comments. The seven fan bracing pattern with the two lateral closing braces as by Torres is in fact the standard pattern applied on guitars built in the traditional spanish style. I wouldn't say that this pattern is only suitable for classical guitars. The top sevillan Luthier Francisco Barba uses a similiar pattern for his flamenco guitars too and the result is excellent. Many of the old school spanish luthiers applied their own bracing pattern which many of them developped during their lifetime to an individual design. Professional luthiers do not consider the bracing pattern as something which is to be separated from the whole. They always use a specific bracing pattern as part of a whole system. I think it's important to get the so called "big picture" of guitarconstruction. The bracing pattern is to my opinion not the most important factor in the guitarmaking process allthough it has an influence but it's just one of many, many more. José Ramirez wrote in his book "things about the guitar" that he spent a lot of time in his earlier years in order to experiment with new and innovative bracing patterns. The result was disappointing though, as non of the new bracing patterns did result in a better tone than any of the guitars with a traditional bracing pattern. His conclusion was, that there must be other factors who could more dramatically improve the sound of a guitar than the just the bracing pattern. However there are some rules that really seem to change the voicing of the instrument. It's the so called focal point of the fan bracing. A focal point around the 8,9,10th fret will most likely make the sound of guitar more open and somewhat warmer while a focal point around the 11th and 12th fret results in a brighter tone with more trebles. A focal point in the upper frets (11+) will increase the lateral stiffness of the soundboard which may result in a stronger treble response. But as already mentioned the focal point is also only one part of the "big picture". Today there are mainly two bracing patterns considered to be superior for flamenco guitars. It's the 1933 pattern by Santos Hernandez and the 1951 pattern by Marcelo Barbero. The correct thicknessing of the soundboard, the correct thicknessing and shaping of the braces is easily ignored by newstarting luthiers, but this factors may be even more important than the bracing pattern. All this factors depend on the soundboard material that you have on hand when starting to build. Therfor it is actually a mistake to build a guitar exactly to the specs indicated on a blue print. The reason is, that the luthier who built the originial instrument worked with different materials with different physical and acustical properties. This fact should not be left out. I wish you a successful building of your first guitar. Armando
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Date Jan. 3 2006 15:33:20
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RE: BRACING / STRUT PATTERNS (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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quote:
For example, Anders once mentioned that he only uses ONE harmonic bar. whereas my guitar has TWO Bop bop bop. James. I said that my guitars have one UPPER harmonic bar. Most makers work a traditional 5 or 7 piece strut, with or without closing struts. I think that many makers here in Spain have their own "formula" of how to do things. Me to. Everything might look the same, but remember that there might be a big difference in something that looks similar to the eye, when we talk about differences in tenth of milimeter. A lot of things you feel more than you see. You can make very nice flamenco guitars using Torres bracing pattern, in fact more or less all traditional bracing (abanico) comes from Torres, and remember also that Torres made MANY different bracing systems............ BTW: 2,6 - 2,7mm thick soundboard is very thick for spruce. That's what I do with cedar!!!! A spruce topped flamenco guitar should be around 2 - 2,3mm (IMHO) depending on the quality of the soundboard.
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Date Jan. 4 2006 8:14:06
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Armando
Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland
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RE: BRACING / STRUT PATTERNS (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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Hy JBASHORUN Allthough i'm not Anders i'd like to give my comments as well. quote:
On my guitar, I used an extra bar just above the main upper harmonic bar because my teacher told me this would help stiffen the soundboard the therefore increase the treble response (brightness). Some Luthiers put an additional transverse brace in between the end of the neck and the upper harmonic bar. Others use a batch and some Luthiers none of it. Most flamenco guitars feature a batch in this area. The main purpose of this additional bar or batch is to stabilize the soundboard beneath the ebony fretboard. Ebony absorbes and evaporates easily room humidity. This will cause the fretboard to either swell or shrink. This in turn will cause a stress to the soundbaord due to the fact that the soundboard is rather sensitive to lateral shrinkage. The aim of this batch or brace is to avoid cracking of the soundboard along the fretboard. Acustically i don't think that a batch in this area will have a great influence on the tone. quote:
I also used two small struts running perpendicular to the upper and lower harmonic bars, as I was told this would do the same thing. If i understand you correctly you refere to the area at the left and right side of the soundhole. Most luthiers glue either a batch to the left and right side or even a whole batch in form of a ring around the entire soundhole. The main function of this batches is to support the area below the rosette, because the rosette channel takes away stiffness from the soundboard in this area. This need to be compensed. Some Luthiers use bars instead of batches to support this area. Some luthiers add an additional short brace on either side of the bathches, but this is mainly seen on classical guitars. In regards to the sound i always make sure the batches are as light and stiff as possible and everywhere well rounded and sanded. That's all. Whether your soundboard is too stiff or not is difficult to say, as this depends on the quality of the soundboard material, but 2.7mm is most likely too beefy for a spruce top unless the soundboard is terribly floppy. If you have made your soundboard rather too thick, you may still tapper it towards the edges to about 2.2mm. This would make your soundboard somewhat lighter, which is good for a flamenco guitar. It would also lower the pitch of the soundboard and make the soundboard somewhat more flexible. This could add basses to the guitar, but does not necessarily take away trebles, as long as the soundboard is stiff enough in the center area. The braces could be shaved to a rather flat profile (around 3mm height) unless the soundboard material is too floppy as already mentioned above. I hope this helps a bit. good luck Armando
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Date Jan. 6 2006 14:35:00
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RE: BRACING / STRUT PATTERNS (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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James. I will strongly recommend you to stay with the Torres plan for your first guitar. It's the mother of all guitars. The only problem I see is that your soundboard is to thick... If it's so floppy that you have to work it so thick, it's worthless and will never sound. As far as I remember, the Torres plan you can by says something around 2mm, but I might be wrong. On a very good soundboard (stiff) you can go down to 2,1 - 2,2 in the center and 1,9 - 2mm in the sides, but don't go so thin on the sides on your first guitar, maybe you will scrape or sand to much away on the edges when yo trim the bindings of finish sand the guitar. That's a typical beginners error and I,ve done it myself. I personally use a 2mm batch between the heel and the UPPER harmonic bar. This because of what Armando says, to minimize the risk of soundboard cracks to the sides of the fingerboard.
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Date Jan. 6 2006 17:58:12
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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RE: BRACING / STRUT PATTERNS (in reply to Armando)
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Thank you Armando, El Zurdo and Anders! I will try and keep to the Torres pattern as much as possible... but I do want my guitar to sound distinctly Flamenco rather than just being classical guitar with golpeadores. I guess maybe the soundboard thickness might be the crucial factor then, and I'll try to thin it down. The trouble is that I have already glued the struts and harmonic bars in place, so I can't really test the flexibility very effectively. I just blindly followed my teacher's instructions on the best thickness according to how flexible he felt the soundboard was. As it is my first guitar I had no idea how to tell. quote:
If I understand you correctly you refer to the area at the left and right side of the soundhole. Most luthiers glue either a batch to the left and right side or even a whole batch in form of a ring around the entire soundhole. The main function of this batches is to support the area below the rosette, because the rosette channel takes away stiffness from the soundboard in this area. This need to be compensed. Some Luthiers use bars instead of batches to support this area. Some luthiers add an additional short brace on either side of the bathches, but this is mainly seen on classical guitars. I have already glued the soundhole patch in place... I used 2 strips of wood either side of the soundhole. I also added a small strip to above and below the soundhole (just inside the harmonic bars) as I was told this would also stiffen it and make the sound brighter. But I did add the 2 braces on either side of the soundhole patches, which you said is mainly used on classical guitars... The model I am following is a Torres (?) Classical style, so I just put them in. None of my teachers knows much specifically about Flamenco guitars, so they weren't sure. If you have time, let me know if you think I should plane off these outer braces, and what effect it will have on the sound (if any). Thanks again! James
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Date Jan. 7 2006 20:00:36
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Guest
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RE: BRACING / STRUT PATTERNS (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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I Totally agree with what Armando has just written. These are very advices. I build with these little finger braces to the sides of the soundhole, and have build without.... I´m not sure I could see any difference. The reason I use them I that the area around the soundhole is supposed to be as stiff as possible, in order to let the sound out without to much turbulence. Don´t worry about the Torres layout. It will work if you get the right stifness in your soundboard. I´ve said this before. IMO it´s not so much the bracing layout, but much more how you work it which matters. I build 7 piece fan with 2 closing struts and a slightly slanted lower harmonic bar, but this basic layout can be worked in so many ways that it´s almost endless.
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Date Jan. 10 2006 15:24:25
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Guest
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RE: BRACING / STRUT PATTERNS (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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Armando. Tell us when your webpage is up and running. A lot of amateur builders build very fine instruments. Dedication and time is a very possitive thing in building. The last thing, the touch, is what takes a lot of time.... A life or more. Also, there are so many things which are difficult to explain, because they are intuitive....
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Date Jan. 12 2006 16:17:04
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