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RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How?   You are logged in as Guest
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Leñador

Posts: 5229
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to WGuitar

Super interesting videos Al. Video two feels super flamenco to me. Just missing the knuckles on the table.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 2 2015 3:54:18
 
sissoko

 

Posts: 24
Joined: Apr. 12 2015
 

RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to Leñador

Check out El Lebrijano (Juan Peña)


"Arabic" is not accurate enough. We first have to know history.
Andalucia was "Al Andalus" for 7 centuries, it is still refered to as a golden age in marroco and some families that had to move to marroco because of the inquisition kept the key of their home in spain... for centuries until now.
So there was a time in andalucia when every village with more than 400 inhabitants had a mosque. And it is obvious that hearing 5 times a day the call to prayer is a very important cultural fact.
The King Al Hakam Ist brought the persian musician Zyryab to his court in the VIIIth century, check out his accomplishments on his wiki page (and thanks to paco de lucia for his tribute)

The luth ('oud) was the ancestor of the guitar, but there are similarities in the toque of flamenco guitar and guembri as well : the golpes and the alzapua (it is said that at the beginning flamenco guitar was played mainly with the thumb). The guembri is still played a lot in marroco, it comes from the west african ngoni. Now we should also consider that there were african people in the south of spain in the XVIII/XIXth century, and some say they were the one who brought fandango.

If you listen to arabo-andalucian music (the music of Al-Andalus that is still played in marocco and algeria) you'll find similarities. The "phrygian" mode, some rythms. In Africa this music is linked to the court of the ancient kings, it is still a music of the upper class. Now if you listen to the Verdiales, the original verdiales still sung by peasants around malaga, you'll hear similarities. The rebab has become a violin, the 'oud has become a guitar, and the tar has become a larger drum. Of course the music is not the same at all because on one side you have music for rich people and on the other side a festive peasant's music. But the link is obvious. Africa is very close to Spain, and there always was a lot of cultural exchanges between both sides.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2015 18:55:12
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11268
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to sissoko

THe "obvious" relation of fandangos, or Verdiales, to African music escapes me. Any examples of such African music?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2015 19:55:27
 
sissoko

 

Posts: 24
Joined: Apr. 12 2015
 

RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to Leñador

the relation I was talking about is between arabo-andalucian music and verdiales





For fandangos, I have read about its african origins on the web, but I couldn't say.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2015 20:45:30
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2851
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to sissoko

quote:

If you listen to arabo-andalucian music (the music of Al-Andalus that is still played in marocco and algeria) you'll find similarities. The "phrygian" mode, some rythms. In Africa this music is linked to the court of the ancient kings, it is still a music of the upper class.


When you speak of "Africa" and its links to, and influence on, Al Andalus, are you speaking of the Berbers who conquered the Visigoths and established Al Andalus beginning in 711, and who established several dynasties (some very harsh) after the so-called "Golden Age" in subsequent centuries? Or are you speaking of Sub-Saharan, Black Africans who indeed were in Al Andalus as slaves? There was an active trans-Saharan slave trade, and many Black African slaves ended up in Al Andalus. The Berbers, of course, were not Arabs. Although they had been conquered by Arab armies, they were, and are, a separate ethnic group, although they had absorbed Islam and the Arabic language.

It is well-known that the Berbers (Moors), Jews, and Gitanos all influenced flamenco as we know it. But you seem to be saying there was influence that extended from beyond North Africa into Sub-Saharan Africa. To expand on Ricardo's question regarding Fandangos and Verdiales, if there was influence from Sub-Saharan Africa, what was it? How did it influence the music of Al Andalus? Was it the Black African slave culture in Al Andalus that had influence? And what are the sources for this information?

Bill

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2015 20:51:23
 
sissoko

 

Posts: 24
Joined: Apr. 12 2015
 

RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to Leñador

there were african people in Andalucia in the XVIIIth and XIXth too, not only during the time of al-andalus.
The Africans were in Marroco not only as slaves but also as students or just inhabitants. And their influence on music in marocco is huge.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%ADtmica_en_cruz
quote:

Dauer prueba que, en las Antillas y en Latinoamérica, polimetría y polirritmia se mantienen todavía en el ámbito afroamericano; en Norteamérica queda solamente la polirritmia como elemento vétero-africano y sigue siendo determinante, al menos, hasta el swing.

Este elemento trazador, hace que algunos autores, como Jahn, planteen la posibilidad de que la música africana haya influido en el flamenco, al ver permanencias de la rítmica en cruz en algunos palos (fandango) y sospechar que algunas características rítmicas de otros (seguiriya, bulería) puedan contenerlas igualmente, a falta de estudios serios al respecto.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2015 21:07:20
 
bicharraco

 

Posts: 25
Joined: Mar. 19 2015
 

RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to Leñador

La influencia es contraria, de Andalucía hacia el norte de África (especialmente Túnez y Marruecos), que es donde se asentaron los moriscos, que eran muladíes, hispanos convertidos al islam.

Ejemplo: el arco de herradura, que en todo el mundo ejemplifica la arquitectura musulmana, es un elemento autóctono iberico, que se puede ver en algunas iglesias visigodas anteriores a la conquista arabe. A raíz de la construcción de la mezquita de Córdoba, que consiste en arcos de herradura ibéricos sobre columnas romanas, se expandió por el mundo islamico.

En el norte de África lo saben y llaman a esas influencias, por ejemplo en la música, andalusies, mientras que aquí lo hacemos mal y decimos árabes...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2015 7:48:02
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