I made a mistake while fretting

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Ahmed Flamenco

Posts: 163
Joined: Feb. 22 2014
From: Egypt

I made a mistake while fretting

I made a mistake while fretting , the 1st 4th and 5th fret are 0.5 mm more far from nut than it should be according to the measurements
I made 6th string length 652mm, first 650 mm by twisting the bridge itself not the saddle
the notes are not perfect

can I fix this problem?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2015 22:47:43

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: I made a mistake while fretting (in reply to Ahmed Flamenco)

That doesn't make sense. The distance is longer for the 6th string because of the thickness so if there's a compensation it will always be longer than the 1st.

I wouldn't choose to angle the bridge like you did but that can't be the problem.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2015 23:03:11

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: I made a mistake while fretting (in reply to Ahmed Flamenco)

There's a problem called 'cumulative error'.

Hard to say what is the problem, but all those factors, bridge and fret combined will contribute something to this error.

A few ideas:

If you can remove the bridge and reglue it with all the strings compensated about 1.5 to 2mm, use a wider saddle, then try to adjust the intonation by moving the ridge of the saddle toward or away from the nut in each string group. Usual format - trebles forward, G string back, D in the middle basses back a bit.

Or try to fit a wider saddle on the bridge a see if you can work out better intonation by moving the ridge forward of backward like above.

Frets: pull the misplaced frets carefully after heating them a bit with a soldering iron. Get a set of wire snippers and grind the face flat. I can show you a pair if you don't l have them already made.

Take some left scraps of your fingerboard and scrape them down really thin into veneers that fit tightly into the slots of the removed frets. and super glue them in. Then take some dust from the fingerboard and pack it in to the fret slot around the veneer if it is not completely tight. Add a bit more super glue, then scrape it flat.

Re measure the fret position and clamp the ruler to the neck so it does not move when you have it indexed against the nut. Then mark the proper fret position with a knife.

To recut the slot, take the first tooth of the saw or the last tooth and pull it down the knife line until it scrapes a straight groove into the fingerboard right on the line. When the groove is established you should be able to pull the whole blade through the slot and deepen it. A few more passes and you will have almost the right depth slot. Sometimes a little wax on the teeth of the saw help.

______________________

You problem sounds more like the bridge to me. But in these kinds of multi error situations you have to go back to fix everything.

However one half mm is not always enough to throw intonation off significantly, it depends on the string length.

Hope that information helps

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2015 1:57:13

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: I made a mistake while fretting (in reply to Sr. Martins)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2015 7:54:50

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: I made a mistake while fretting (in reply to Ahmed Flamenco)

The bridge AND the frets are placed wrong?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2015 10:44:39

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1676
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: I made a mistake while fretting (in reply to Ahmed Flamenco)

Remember that nothing is perfect about the intonation of a guitar. Consider that there are three string lengths even if the saddle is parallel to the frets, because the strings are not at right angles to the frets.

0.5mm is very little. I even doubt that you would be able to hear a difference caused by this. A simple way to fix this would be to recrown the frets in question, skewing the top of the crown so that it is at the desired location.

The way you skewed the bridge sort of makes sense to me, if you want that kind of compensation (which I don't believe is noticeable to the ear, and I have a good ear).

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2015 15:49:57

Ahmed Flamenco

Posts: 163
Joined: Feb. 22 2014
From: Egypt

RE: I made a mistake while fretting (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

I have checked the measurements just right now ,it may be right or slightly wrong I can't exactly decide but I think the reason is the nut is not in its right place there is slight error I'll try to fix it.
for the saddle I have a choice to swing it as it is not fitted
I can adjust it to be 650 mm for the 1st string 652 mm for the 6th string.
or 652 mm for the 1st and 654 mm for the 6th.
what choice should I make?
Another thing I would really like to thank everybody here who helped me from the beginning
I want to say thanks to (Ethan Deutsch ,Stephen faulk ,Andy culppeper and Anders eliasson and anybody I didn't mention

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2015 21:56:40

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1676
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: I made a mistake while fretting (in reply to Ahmed Flamenco)

Ahmed--

quote:

I can adjust it to be 650 mm for the 1st string 652 mm for the 6th string.
or 652 mm for the 1st and 654 mm for the 6th.

If the distance between the nut and the crown of the 12th fret is 325mm, then 650/652 for the lengths of the first and sixth strings is okay. 652/654 is way too much compensation and would lead to serious problems.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2015 23:33:54

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: I made a mistake while fretting (in reply to Sr. Martins)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2015 7:46:46

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: I made a mistake while fretting (in reply to Ahmed Flamenco)

"twisting" or skewing the entire bridge is very traditional here in Spain but the difference between sixth and first should be somewhere between .5mm and 1mm. To use two mm is too much.

If you use just enough skew the bridge will still look straight at first glance.

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John Ray
https://www.johnguitar.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2015 13:29:42

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: I made a mistake while fretting (in reply to johnguitar)

quote:

To use two mm is too much.

That's what I thought... if 2mm are noticeable when looking at a slanted saddle, the bridge would be even more noticeable.. or not?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2015 13:33:01

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1676
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: I made a mistake while fretting (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

That's what I thought... if 2mm are noticeable when looking at a slanted saddle, the bridge would be even more noticeable.. or not?

My suggestion that 650/652 would be okay was based on my experience slanting a saddle (not the entire bridge) almost exactly that much, on a classical guitar that I built in 2003 with a 650mm scale length (325 mm between nut and crown of 12th fret). I found the intonation to be indistinguishable from a similar guitar with the saddle not slanted, and placed 651.5 mm from the nut.

In this thread I was not at all considering whether slanting the entire bridge any amount would be visually noticeable. I suppose it depends on who is looking.

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_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2015 14:36:33

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: I made a mistake while fretting (in reply to Ahmed Flamenco)

To much or to little depends on various factors, including string brand and tension.
As in everything in luthiery, there are no fixed easy answers and therefor there are also no fixed easy "thats wrong" answers.
Saddles and nuts can be worked and center of frets can be adjusted as well. If thats not enough, then frets can be taken off, slots can be filled with wood dust and cyano and a new fretslot cut.
Its about being very meticulous and work one thing a time.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2015 9:40:22

Ahmed Flamenco

Posts: 163
Joined: Feb. 22 2014
From: Egypt

RE: I made a mistake while fretting (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I am using luthier set35 medium/hard flamenco/classical strings
concerning the nut and the saddle , what's your own opinion for the compensation ?
I think I might be able to sand the saddle slot to get different compensation measurements or split the saddle into two pieces and swing each piece to the required position.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2015 22:08:57