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treble development on new Guitars?   You are logged in as Guest
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Paschi

 

Posts: 9
Joined: Apr. 3 2010
 

treble development on new Guitars? 
Hello there
i have a short question about trebles on a New Guitar.

The Guitar was just finished some weeks ago (by a more or less unknown Luthier from Jerez) and now that it made his way to Germany it appears that the trebles are very dull. The Bass seems alright

so the question is if anybody can tell me if there is room for development in the next weeks or months or is it going to stay like this?

I guess after being born a Guitar needs her time to grow but is there hope for the trebles to open up?!?!?!

NO French Laquer! its Nitro!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2015 11:50:11
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to Paschi) 
There is always hope for a new guitar to develop after being played for awhile. The basic age and playing-in have always been a factor. And if after being played in, the guitar seems to be slow in its delivery with tone, then there are different string brands you can use that would make a difference.

You don't say what the cost is so I assume that it is not expensive.

And sometimes a thick top will impede the treble end, when new, but age should correct it, to some extent.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2015 14:03:49
 
bernd

 

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004
 

RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to Paschi) 
Hi Paschi,

das glaube ich eher nicht. Der Lack keinen Einfluss auf die Höhen sondern kann, wenn er schlecht gemacht und zu dick aufgetragen wird, den gesamten hinteren Schwingungsberech hemmen. Das wirkt sich aufs gesamte Spektrum aus.

I let me biuld a guitar some years ago. It didn´t have dull trebles and growling basses. The trebles were very hard, harder than any Conde I checked. My experience is, as well that of many other guitarists I talked with is, that if a balanced tone is not given into the birth of the guitar, then it never will get a normal balance. I´m sorry.

You only can get better nuances for trebles by using carbon strings e. g. Chorum Aliance by Savarez.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2015 14:10:22
 
etta

 

Posts: 342
Joined: Jan. 20 2010
 

RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to Paschi) 
Try some Savarez Alliance trebles
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2015 15:29:15
 
estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to Paschi) 
Try playing the **** out of it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2015 15:33:55
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to Paschi) 
number 1 factor on dullness or brightness of a guitar, I find, even with old strings, is humidity. When a guitar is introduced to a new environment, say, a dry one to a wetter one, the guitar literally drinks the water in the air and becomes bloated. All guitars do this that are made of wood, no matter how old they are. I have guitars older than myself that have good or bad days based on the weather. When the guitar dries a bit the sound is affected. Sometimes action too. IF the guitar dries too quick it will crack, so be careful. You probably want to get the guitar in a stable condition humidity wise and let the strings settle down so the harmonic overtones can add up and make the guitar bright.

One crazy thing also, to show how relative equalization is; Put on some big headphones, not plugged in, the kind that cover you ear and mute out the background sound. Practice your guitar like this for a little while, your guitar will sound quite muffled and midrangy. AFter about 30 minutes, take off the headphones...the treble strings sound like breaking glass all of a sudden.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2015 16:13:24
 
Paschi

 

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RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to Paschi) 
thanks for the Replies!

I don´t know if the Luthier is O.K. with naming him
He´s no professional Luthier but He´s building Guitars since 12 years or something.
slowly He´s making a Name and builts Guitars for Alfredo Lagos ...
He´s friend with all the Jerezanos like The Grillos, Moraos, Sorderas etc.
they come to Play, Visit, testing Guitars drink Sherry etc.

The Guitar is a Negra (very beautiful Woods) and is about 1.800,- Euros
(sure a good price for Handcrafted Guitars) it is the friends price!

right now she´s not in my Place she´s in a different City with a friend of mine who knows the Luthier very well and ordered the Guitar. He was telling me that the trebles are very dull etc. (He´s a professionel Guitarist and owns some nice Instruments!) I didnt try it myself but will in the next 2 weeks
at the End I don´t have to buy it but would give it a try if the thing with the trebles could be fixed...

I was thinking the same like Bernd said that "if the Guitar isnt born with a balanced tone it will maybe/probably never become so" "?

for that Reason I need/ed your opinion/knowledge of development !!!

-------------------------------------------

If this isnt the right Guitar i will either try a Nicolaus Wolf or a Anders Eliasson Guitar sure they are more than 1800 Euros but they seem to be worth their Money
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2015 17:40:29
 
bernd

 

Posts: 680
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RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

number 1 factor on dullness or brightness of a guitar, I find, even with old strings, is humidity. When a guitar is introduced to a new environment, say, a dry one to a wetter one, the guitar literally drinks the water in the air and becomes bloated.


I agree completely, but in fact this process cannot work, because during the heating period Germany is anything else than a wood-friendly place for guitars. During this time everyone needs a guitar humidifyer to prevent cracks.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2015 18:09:20
 
krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to Paschi) 
quote:

The Guitar is a Negra (very beautiful Woods) and is about 1.800,- Euros (sure a good price for Handcrafted Guitars) it is the friends price!


Yes its a good price, but not if the guitar is no good for you. Did you try it before buying?

I think, if you are not happy you should return it and get a refund, then buy something else.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2015 16:11:14
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to krichards) 
Just muddying the waters here a little. One of my close flamenco friends had a classical pro in Madrid go to the Conde shop in Gravina 7 to pick out a guitar for him. My friend received a new 1973 media luna in Austin.

I felt sorry for my friend. The guitar was dead as a doornail. It sounded like a pine board. But I said nothing about my opinion.

Two or three years later the guitar had opened up. It was loud, with solid brilliant trebles and growling basses. I tried to buy it from my friend more than once, but he wouldn't sell.

Having said that, I still would agree with much of the advice you have received so far. If you really don't like the guitar, try to get a refund.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2015 21:09:23
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to Paschi) 
There are plenty of luthiers out there who do not charge Conde prices and have a good track record in producing good (and occasionally outstanding) flamenco guitars. These guitars come with acceptable trebles from the start.

I get into a bit of trouble as a “guitar opening up” sceptic and when pressed I have to admit that on this highly subjective matter, certainty is hard to come by.

So I can only speak from my own experience and perception.

I can say very little about the period between first stringing up a guitar and the guitar arriving at the customer. Some luthiers say that significant changes take place in the early period and I respect this opinion. I can only report that I once collected a guitar from Manual Bellido that was just back from having the FP finish applied and I watched him stick the label in with amazing skill. The guitar was good from the start and it is still good 20 years later.

I can detect variations in how my guitars feel and sound as relative humidity changes but I don't really detect any gradual improvement over the years. My best guitars have remained stubbornly good over the years and some slightly disappointing ones did not made the improvement that I hoped for.

If the trebles are really dead I would advise you not to accept the guitar. Take what you will from Richard J’s story - but who wants to wait 3 years hoping for better trebles?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2015 8:59:24
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to Paschi) 
A good guitar will sound good right away, even the trebles, in my experience. So I recommend if you are not completely happy with it you should return it and invest the same amount or preferrably more for a new guitar which you can try for at least 30 minutes before buying it. It sucks to have a guitar you used your last money on(at least as in my case if buying a new guitar, I'm broke afterwards) and not be fully satisfied!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2015 10:36:19
 
bernd

 

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004
 

RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to Paschi) 
Hi Paschi,

if you don´t like the guitar and don´t need to pay it, then let it return. I´m completely with tele and shared such a misfortune on a negra.
The best negra below 2.200 € by my opinion is the Camps Primera.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2015 12:35:41
 
estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to Paschi) 
Guitars are funny.

But consider this: They can be built to sound good right away. Usually guitars with thinner tops can sound good really fast in a few days.

However guitars with thicker tops and thicker dimensions overall can take some time to develop. But when they do develop they can be very fine guitars.

How can you tell? You can't it's mostly taking a chance. My gut is that if a guitar is thin and responsive, but does not have a lot of guts, it won't get guts over time. It will speak well, but usually stay with the same amount of power and become about more mellow.

If a guitar is tight and tough, but has guts, a profound feeling of power within it, then it has a chance of developing with a lot of play. Usually thicker topped guitars can develop if they have some inherent power but are a bit lackluster at first.

Most guitars sound good soon after being strung up, a matter of a few days, but after that they continue to change. One thing I've noticed is that guitars that have tops that are too thin can be fantastic in the beginning, but grow flabby and loose sounding over time. I'm a bit wary of guitars that sound worn in right from the start, they have little room to develop.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2015 13:29:26
 
tijeretamiel

 

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012
 

RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to estebanana) 
Some excellent advice in this thread.

Humidity is a weird thing. Some guitars seem to be prone to it than others. I've got one acoustic steel string guitar which for a few weeks of the year (which seem to be the few weeks when it snows in the UK) it develops a dead note at the 5th of fret of the high E string and the guitar irrespective of how old the strings are or what brand, the guitar sounds absolutely terrible. When that happens, I leave the guitar in it's case for a few weeks with a Planet Waves soundhole humidifier and the problems go away.

I don't know what the humidity is like in Germany, but I imagine it could be a significant difference to where the guitar was made and I myself would be reluctant to send the guitar back before if humidification is the issue.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2015 14:08:28
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

I'm a bit wary of guitars that sound worn in right from the start, they have little room to develop.


I wish you and I could be in the same neighborhood. We could trade off some tuning techniques that would incorporate all of these issues, and clarify some misunderstandings to satisfy the art.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2015 14:13:58
 
estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to Tom Blackshear) 
quote:

I wish you and I could be in the same neighborhood. We could trade off some tuning techniques that would incorporate all of these issues, and clarify some misunderstandings to satisfy the art.

________________


I wish I was near by. I need to trade some guitar maker knowledge, but I'm sure you would be helping me more than me helping you. And some Tex Mex lunch would be good too!

But I take it mostly agree ? A guitar is not hurt by a little tiny extra meat on it's bones?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2015 15:33:23
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to Paschi) 
One of my guitars behaves in a strange fashion when it comes to high humidity (such as it is right now, 70%).


The middle part of the top behind the bridge stays in the same place but the longitudinal sides of that area (where the bridge wings end) bulge up, making that center area appear sunken (well, it is).

When the guitar was new, everytime the humidity rised the guitar felt slower and less midrange-y. Nowadays it must have stabilized as a whole because the change isn't as noticeable as it was before and even the action at the 12th fret doesn't vary as much with humidity as it did a year ago.


Iam thinking that maybe, besides other factors, the wood kind of gets used to frequent changes in humidity.


Regarding the topic, it must be my ears or what I consider to be the treble region but I notice humidity changing the upper midrange (the growly, "clack clack" part of the sound) more than the treble.


Either way, when the trebles (the strings) on a guitar sound like crap and the red/black trebles don't improve it, the guitar will always be treble dead.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2015 16:29:25
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

One crazy thing also, to show how relative equalization is; Put on some big headphones, not plugged in, the kind that cover you ear and mute out the background sound. Practice your guitar like this for a little while, your guitar will sound quite muffled and midrangy. AFter about 30 minutes, take off the headphones...the treble strings sound like breaking glass all of a sudden.


A little off-topic but you reminded me of something I've been meaning to bring up:
Sometimes I'm wearing headphones in the shop while I work (just Skullcandy earbuds that go all the way in the ear). Once I had those in, but not listening to anything, and I picked up my guitar and started to play.

The guitar sounds absolutely amazing when wearing the earbuds!

Why is this? It sounds totally focused, punchy, dry... like a great flamenco guitar but better. Is it because the earbuds filter out high and low and make the sound more mid-heavy? I need to figure out how to make guitars that sound like that naturally! (Not really possible of course but an interesting thing to aim at)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2015 13:09:25
 
tri7/5

 

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RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to Paschi) 
All guitars I've heard with good treble response always had it even as new. What seemed to play in were the basses and overall more full and vocal sound. Not saying it's not possible for a guitar to develop treble response but I would be worried personally.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2015 13:14:00
 
estebanana

Posts: 9352
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RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to Andy Culpepper) 
quote:

Why is this? It sounds totally focused, punchy, dry... like a great flamenco guitar but better. Is it because the earbuds filter out high and low and make the sound more mid-heavy? I need to figure out how to make guitars that sound like that naturally! (Not really possible of course but an interesting thing to aim at)


Just include earbuds with the guitars. HA

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2015 14:43:27
 
RobJe

 

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From: UK

RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to Andy Culpepper) 
quote:

The guitar sounds absolutely amazing when wearing the earbuds! Why is this?


I am not sure of the exact characteristics of your earplugs but here are some relevant factors that might help explain this phenomenon.

Our hearing comes from a mixture of air conduction and bone conduction. In the former, sound waves travel through the ear canal and vibrate the eardrum. The processes leading from here to the perception of sound will be found in popular science books. However in bone conduction, hearing is induced by vibration of the bones in the skull.

You hear your own voice as a mixture of the two – about 50-50. If you put your hands over your ears and speak or sing, the majority of what you hear is transmitted by bone conduction from the vibration of your vocal chords. You will find that it sounds different – more bassy perhaps?

When Beethoven was going deaf he found he could ”listen” to the piano by attaching a rod to the piano and clenching the other end in his teeth.

So Andy, when you got bored with this thread and tried to divert our attention by sticking small plugs in your ears, you could possibly have been “hearing” the guitar through a mixture of air and bone conduction - more heavily weighted to bone.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2015 15:41:11
 
Andy Culpepper

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From: NY, USA

RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to Paschi) 
Rob, thanks for that explanation, it makes sense. To me it sounds "condensed"... kind of like how a good condenser mic recording can, in a way, sound better than listening to the guitar in the room.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2015 20:04:26
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: treble development on new Guitars? (in reply to Andy Culpepper) 
My favorite place to hear the guitar is when it's tilted forward and I can't see the front of the guitar or the fretboard.

I think it must be mainly the sound from the back of the guitar, don't really know but it sounds great.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2015 20:13:22
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