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I would like to suggest a question/'experiment' about perception. Spanish flamenco aficionados loves usually some charcteristics that gipsy voices have in comparison with 'payas' (everyone that is not gypsy) voices. Some concepts who describe this kind of characteristics are 'rajo' or other as 'aquejar la voz' and are really important in expression. There is an extended opinion that these characteristics are not easily acquired only with technique.
For example, you can compare a siguirilla from 'El torta' (Jerez, gypsy) and a siguirilla from 'Poveda' (Barcelona/Murcia roots, payo).
My questions are for non-native Spanish Speakers:
1.Do you differ it clearly in singers?. And, if it is,
2.How do you describe it?
3.Do you find any parallel characteristic in guitars sound?
RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb)
Great question JMB, reminds me of a time a friend played me a track and asked what I thought of the singer. "Es muy gitano!" I replied after just one letra. "Muy gitano?" he said, "the guy's Japanese!". He handed me the CD box, I'd been had, a Japanese singer on a disk of the Agujetas family!
RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb)
Good but dificult cuestion! I can clearly hear a difference between a tipical gitano y payo singer. Although I dont think it has so much to do with being gitano or payo but more in wich enviroment you were raised. For example el Capullo de Jerez for me sounds very gitano! But he is payo :) Same goes for the guitarplayers. Now the tipical gitano voice for me is more rough, less educated, more compas, everything just seems to go naturally. Payo singers and players seem to measure everything more and make it sound less natural. I dont know if I'm explaining myself correctly... It's a bit like with soul music, without a doubt best soul artists are black! Even when the voice isn't that good they have something special(soul?!?) For example Louis armstrong his voice might not be all that, but its beatifull at the same time. I think payo singers and players worrie a lot more about everyrhing: pitch, technique, compas, many gitanos dont care and just sing or play and make it sound great
Posts: 15482
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb)
I will say I prefer the natural to the fake. It has nothing to do with race either. So I prefer the SOUND of vicente soto (more natural) to Jose Merce (puts on fake "rajo")...similarly I prefer Esperanza Fernandez (natural) to Carmen Linares (a fake rajo).
But for sure singing has technical things. Saddly I think the variety of the old singers was more rich, because today, everybody I hear is just copying some on else's sound.
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Joined: Dec. 10 2012
From: Bradford United Kingdom
RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to koenie17)
Koenie I agree, it all about a persons life and experiences. It's not as much if your a gypsy or not it's all about how much passion you put in to your music, if you sing or play from the heart you sound like you have greater conviction and passion regardless of how technically good you are. As you mentioned with jazz the same applies with blues listen to any lightning Hopkins, son house mephis slim records you will hear there passion and suffering they are authentic because they have lived and experienced life. Non gypsies may play more technically better but I think it is impossible to get the real feel unless you have suffered the hardships gypsies have, pain suffering and joy makes beauty
RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb)
I am a little ignorant, I like what I am moved by and then find out later about the blood as an after thought.
I also prefer to hear people singing with their own voice not putting on rajo if it's not really there, gitano or payo. For example I like Juana la del Pipa and La Perla de Cadiz both gitano I think? but Juana le del Pipa is much more rough.
I imagine that perhaps flamenco serves a social function for gitanos more often than for payos (i.e. it is played at juergas for it's own sake in a very intimate setting) and so it remains more emotional, raw and less effected?
Maybe it's also about era? For me things are generally getting too smooth now in both cante and toque, I prefer raw soul power. But this is not just flamenco- jazz, blues, soul, rock and roll etc.. the first half or three quarters of the last century seemed to me to have a different energy in these types of soul/street music. (please excuse my generalization)
I would like to be educated please, is there a good list somewhere of who is gitano and not? These are some singers I like, are they gitano or payo? Up to now I just kind of assumed that the more hardcore ones are gitano but maybe I'm wrong?
La Perla de Cadiz Antonio Reyes Vicente Soto Manuel Agujetas Antonio Mairena Juana la del Pipa La Perla de Cadiz David de Jacoba Manuel Moneo Antonia La Negra Juan Villar Jesus Mendez La Tana Montse Cortes David Palomar
RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb)
quote:
Maybe it's also about era? For me things are generally getting too smooth now in both cante and toque, I prefer raw soul power. But this is not just flamenco- jazz, blues, soul, rock and roll etc.. the first half or three quarters of the last century seemed to me to have a different energy in these types of soul/street music. (please excuse my generalization)
I feel the same.
Pretty sure Estrella Morente is a gitana and her voice is smooth as silk. On the flipside, Fosforito isn't gitano (i don't think) and he's got a good rajo, especially as he got older....
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From: New Jersey USA
RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb)
If one takes a longer historical perspective, I would say as a generalization that gitano singers as a group tend(ed) to have more rajo in their voices than payo singers. Of course , there will be many exceptions to this. I also concur that, with the passage of time, there has been a general trend to make cante more audience-friendly by selecting for better-looking, better-groomed, and more "normal"- sounding singers, especially cantaoras, in order to attract and hold a larger and more naive public for flamenco. Agujetas once said, not that long ago, that he, La Paquera, and Chocolate were the last three real flamenco singers still alive and plying their trade.......
RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb)
Thanks for your reply guys. I just explain why my questions.
I think it is a really interesting question. Obviously, as you say, it is a cultural way, not a racial, of understanding music. 'Capullo' is a good example, in the environment of Jeréz where gypsies are integrated with 'payos'.
My questions arose from a discussion with a friend, a good aficionado, about a perception that I though it was only mine, but he though the same. It is that outside Cadiz, for example in Madrid or Sevilla where the gipsy community is lees integrated, amateurs flamenco gypsies singers or even children, specially in outcast communities, have usually a beautiful natural 'rajo' despite a worst (or totally unknown) academic technique or skills. For me, this mixtures of interpretation and timbres at the same time cannot be found in most professional singers (of course, a personal opinion) .
As you probably know, this communities conserve an strong Spanish accent and a large number of gypsy words respecting the ‘payo’ community.
José Mercé say that, in the last 40 years there are not appear a voice that really hurts and Camarón (a very special voice anyway) talked in some footages about he trained in order to 'aquejar la voz' ...
RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb)
quote:
My questions arose from a discussion with a friend, a good aficionado, about a perception that I though it was only mine, but he though the same. It is that outside Cadiz, for example in Madrid or Sevilla where the gipsy community is lees integrated, amateurs flamenco gypsies singers or even children, specially in outcast communities, have usually a beautiful natural 'rajo' despite a worst (or totally unknown) academic technique or skills.
Thank you for the thread and everyone's posts.
I imagined and hoped there would be more raw singers in Spain that would never be heard of outside it, either because they would not want to be commercialized, or would not be considered worth commercializing by the record companies.
For those like me, not easily able to participate in gypsy juergas! I do hope that commercially available flamenco jondo may still have a resurgence after this smooth phase. As I wrote before I realise flamenco in an intimate juerga is generally more raw and emotional compared to in an international commercial setting.
I notice recently there have been a few more jondo moments on some contempory flamenco artists albums e.g. David de Jacoba with Pepe Habichuela por seguiryas Montse Cortes with Juan el le pipa por solea bulerias, Israel fernandez with Paco Cepero por seguriyia/tientos David Palomar por seguiryas (the rest of their cds ruined for me by synthesizer pads, fretless bass, chorus etc..),
As you suggest these 'rajo' timbres are not found so much in professional singers but what's the best we can do? Anyone know some good younger singers we can hear without needing to be invited into a gypsy "outcast community"!? Rancapino Hijo, Antonio Reyes? El Perla's toque also seems more 'rajo' if that term can be applied to toque. Or did you mean the sound of the guitar itself?
Posts: 15482
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb)
quote:
ORIGINAL: jmb
Thanks for your reply guys. I just explain why my questions.
I think it is a really interesting question. Obviously, as you say, it is a cultural way, not a racial, of understanding music. 'Capullo' is a good example, in the environment of Jeréz where gypsies are integrated with 'payos'.
My questions arose from a discussion with a friend, a good aficionado, about a perception that I though it was only mine, but he though the same. It is that outside Cadiz, for example in Madrid or Sevilla where the gipsy community is lees integrated, amateurs flamenco gypsies singers or even children, specially in outcast communities, have usually a beautiful natural 'rajo' despite a worst (or totally unknown) academic technique or skills. For me, this timbres cannot be found in most professional singers (of course, a personal opinion) .
As you probably know, this communities conserve an strong Spanish accent and a large number of gypsy words respecting the ‘payo’ community.
José Mercé say that, in the last 40 years there are not appear a voice that really hurts and Camarón (a very special voice anyway) talked in some footages about he trained in order to 'aquejar la voz' ...
It is really interesting for you point of view!
I think you and your amigo are generalizing and finding conclusions that could be incidental. Specific examples would help IMO. I will say there are many people in spain, singer or not, with a rajo voice when simply speaking. In my head I hear these folks and think they would sound nice singing some solea if they knew how. THe simple fact is that most amatures sing with their "talking" voice, and have no understanding of their optimal singing range, and most proffesionals discover a completely different voice they possess that works much better than the other voice for certain situations. For example, Chocolate sings some pop song in Rito y Geografia showing he has a totally different voice he uses for flamenco. Zambo on the other hand I dont' think could sing any other way than he does. Hope that makes sense.
RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
I think you and your amigo are generalizing and finding conclusions that could be incidental.
Yeah ! It could be. And that was the tricky subject of our discussion for us. We, both, lived all our childhood in a disctrict with quite gypsies, we met them and have hear them in the neighborhood and , at the same tame, we have loved attend and enjoy proffesional flamenco for years and even, owing to several circustances, he has met many well-known cantaores ...
As I a said is just a perception (therefore totally subjective). My be, a kind of adquired taste ... as surströmming lovers.
Posts: 3471
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leñador Pretty sure Estrella Morente is a gitana and her voice is smooth as silk. On the flipside, Fosforito isn't gitano (i don't think) and he's got a good rajo, especially as he got older....
Estrella's father Enrique was a payo. This was brought up frequently during the time he was severely criticized by the purists for his innovations. Apparently her mother Aurora Carbonell de Morente is gitana, judging from this quote in an article in El Pais from a little over a year ago:
"Aurora era una bailaora madrileña de 17 años cuando en su camino se cruzó Enrique. 'Al ser yo tan chica y él un payo, mis padres se opusieron...' "
I think an interesting case is Antonio Chacon. Born a payo, he was orphaned at an early age and raised by a gitano cobbler in a gitano barrio in Jerez. His early professional work was with the gitano brothers, tocaor Javier and bailaor Antonio Molina. Yet Chacon's voice was smooth, without rajo, and his pronunciation was much more payo than gitano.
I don't think you can safely conclude a singer's race or cultural background from their vocal style, though there may be generalizations--with notable exceptions.
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Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania
RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb)
I too believe it's the environment. A friend from Sevilla related his experience in Japan, where he heard a wonderful Seguiriyas sung by a Japanese. Convinced the singer was born in Spain, and grew up in a flamenco ambiente, he went backstage to interview him, only to realize he didn't speak one word of Spanish!
BTW, how are you influenced by German? ("Das Experiment" ...)
RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb)
Nice! Very cool. I think that's Juan Bacan next to him? I just did a workshop with him, I felt like a first grader trying to learn physics.... PS put a space after the URL, the parenthesis sends you to a nonexistent page.