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odinz

Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway

Where to get an 8 string flamenco gu... 

So it's been a long time since I posted on here now(is this the right category to post in btw?) But I find myself looking for an eight string guitar that really sounds flamenco, very crisp and growly sound, kinda dry and with a thinner neck and body than classical guitars and other extended range acoustic guitars I have tried out. Anyone have any idea? Any of the luthiers here building one?


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 19:45:35
 
jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to odinz

If your mind has projected something so specific, ask guitarreros for your project of guitar ... I've never seen one.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 21:59:16
 
tele

Posts: 1414
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to odinz

Flamenco guitar with 8 strings? Yeah right...

(no offence)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 22:07:06
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3040
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to odinz



Being a guitarist and a bass player, I would strongly recommend that you don't mix up things unless you're trying to stand out or if you have a very particular musical vision that needs this instrument.

Chances are you'll end up with not getting the sound/fun from the guitar or the bass, simply because you don't get either of the instruments.


There's also the possibility of you wanting to do some Animals As Leaders acoustic covers.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 22:24:39
 
odinz

Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to Sr. Martins

I have coevered a few tracks from Animals as Leaders actually, I play an 8 string electric guitar, and it just opened so many doors for me so I thought it would be awesome to bring that over into my flamenco and other acoustic projects That guitar sounds pretty awesome too by the way

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 22:42:41
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3040
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to odinz

Then go for it!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 22:51:28
 
odinz

Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to Sr. Martins

Just have not seen extended range flamenco guitars except for a few rare 7 string ones.. Guess I can probably find out this guy's luthier or brand or whatever though

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 22:54:36
 
odinz

Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to tele

Would never be offended tele

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 22:57:06
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1611
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to odinz

Will you be able to control the sustain of the basses on an acoustic 8-string?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 22:58:06
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3040
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to odinz

Since you are at it, why not 2 more?

https://www.lasonanta.eu/en/guitarras-flamencas/10-string-flamenco-guitar-negra.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 22:58:50
 
odinz

Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to Sr. Martins

I wouldn't mind a 10 string but how would I tune that thing? wouldn't it need an insane scale length for it to have good intonation in the lowest string? Could probably do some pretty cool stuff though

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 23:04:47
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7518
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to odinz

I'll make you one. I've already made five seven string guitars, two of them for regularly working flamencos, and they are good, I have sound samples of them. 8 strings is possible.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 23:17:28
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1611
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to odinz

quote:

I wouldn't mind a 10 string but how would I tune that thing?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten-string_extended-range_classical_guitar

quote:

wouldn't it need an insane scale length for it to have good intonation in the lowest string?


Narciso Yepes and his pupils managed it…

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2014 16:44:31
 
tri7/5

 

Posts: 529
Joined: May 5 2012
 

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to odinz

quote:

ORIGINAL: odinz

I have coevered a few tracks from Animals as Leaders actually, I play an 8 string electric guitar, and it just opened so many doors for me so I thought it would be awesome to bring that over into my flamenco and other acoustic projects That guitar sounds pretty awesome too by the way


Have you thought about how you're going to tune. Judging by this post it sounds like you want to tune down to E like AAL does (or do they go do D now?). That's bass guitar territory. Most 8 string classical players tune to ADEADGBE or maybe a low B instead. If you're shooting for AAL tuning, IMO nylon strings just don't have quite the tension to go that low even on a decently extended scale like 27". You might need some serious scale length more along the lines of a harp guitar style or Dresden style like Michael Thames makes.

All just my opinion of course. I'm a huge fan of extended range instruments in the electric world but nylon has it's short comings that have to be thought through as compared to other strings.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2014 18:12:04
 
rojarosguitar

Posts: 242
Joined: Dec. 8 2010
 

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to odinz

I don't think you will find one on the market. You could ask e.g. Alexandru Marian (Bucuresti, Romania). He's a very fine maker, has a connection to flamenco and is affordable, and a very nice and kind guy to deal with. Unfortunately his waiting time is now 2 years. I'm mentioning him not to diminish the merits of any of the luthiers present here on the forum, but rather because I have already dealt with him and know nice it is to work with him, and that he's very open to uncommon projects ...
But I'm pretty sure any of the luthiers here in the forum could make one for you, too.

Good luck, nice idea!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2014 10:29:12
 
bernd

 

Posts: 678
Joined: Feb. 15 2004
 

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to odinz

How is an 8 string flamenco guitar tuned and which are the new strings?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2014 13:20:18
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11280
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to odinz

Perhaps not such a new idea? From the book "Guitarreros de Madrid":

Sorry for bad pics. One of the coolest guitars
Was this 1910-12 M. Ramirez 9 string with golpeador...
I can only imagine what the hell kind of
Flamenco fusion was done on this baby!



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2014 15:56:21
 
Estevan

Posts: 1846
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I can only imagine what the hell kind of
Flamenco fusion was done on this baby!

'Metal escandinavo de la muerte' - exactly what he's looking for, well done!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2014 20:52:09
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3040
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to Estevan

"Djenco"

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2014 20:53:55
 
El Kiko

 

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 8 2014 21:37:32
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2014 21:36:38
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5779
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to odinz

IMHO, a 8 string flamenco guitar will not be a real flamenco guitar.
The 6 string flamenco guitar is a highly specialised instrument where the tension and pulsation is dragged to the limit in order to produce the sound it has and have the pulsation that permits you to play the way its been played by the top players.
Instead of concentrating on having more notes and bigger chords, concentrate on learning to play the stuff the right way. It´ll take you 15 - 20 years if you practise hard every day.
If thats boring, play something else and let poor flamenco be in peace. Its already been hurt enough.

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See the guitars I have for sale here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 9 2014 7:57:31
 
jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to odinz

Rodolfo Cuculelli that wrote sometimes in this forum, had an specific model of 8 strings. Perhaps he could help you.

http://guitarrascustom.blogspot.com.es/2012/10/guitarra-flamenca-de-ocho-cuerdas-con.html

I am quite purist, and I don't like this kind of things (I know ... it take all sorts) , but who can fight against progress?



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!

Sing and string - other flamenco blog
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 9 2014 8:17:44
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5779
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to jmb

quote:

but who can fight against progress?


Who defines progress?

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See the guitars I have for sale here:
http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com.es/p/guitars-for-sale.html

Fine flamenco and classical guitars: www.eliassonguitars.com
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 9 2014 11:05:07
 
jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to odinz

You know Anders ...

Technological progress has merely provided us with more efficient means for going backwards.

Aldous Huxley.



Huxley might be a purist flamenco too ...

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Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!

Sing and string - other flamenco blog
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 9 2014 11:44:48
 
rombsix

Posts: 6950
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to odinz



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2014 5:38:26
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5779
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to odinz

Its basically impossible to judge this guitars value as a flamenco guitar. He doesnt do 1 second of rasgueados.
IMHO, what he is doing sounds like a classical guitar played with a flamenco technique.
In the end of the day, its a matter of taste, and flamenco guitars are not only judged by their sound, but on their feel in both right and left hand.
With 33% more string pressure you´ll have to build the top stiffer and it will compromise sound and feel.

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See the guitars I have for sale here:
http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com.es/p/guitars-for-sale.html

Fine flamenco and classical guitars: www.eliassonguitars.com
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2014 7:29:10
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

what he is doing sounds like a classical guitar played with a flamenco technique.

Exactly my thought when i heard it too. (still awesome playing though)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2014 8:56:23
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7518
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to odinz

Yeah, when I lived in Oakland I used to take the seven string guitars I made over to Jason McGuire and he would play them. He almost "stole" one from the guy who I built it for by not giving it back, but in the end he gave it back.

He recorded with it and it sounds flamenco and you can do rasgueados and it will take you a few weeks to a few months to get used to the extra strings. It is not the same as a six string guitar and has practical limitations in terms how how it will perform traditional right hand techniques. There are also some rasgeuado advantages on a seven or eight string instrument you can't do with a six strings and in reality and advanced or extended range of flamenco technique is just waiting to be invented, or reinvented.

I don't think of including a seven or more strung guitar in flamenco as an advancement per se, but as a extension of some attributes of playing and sound possibilities. Traditionalists are sometimes like the Borg on Star Trek, they have a "resistance is futile" type mentality. I find this rather intellectually and musically stultifying. It is true that a flamenco guitar is pretty much a set format and that is does not need any improvements or special kevlar saddles or tap plates to make it better. But at the same time I don't see a need for the screaming against an extension of the range of the guitar if a particular player feels like that exploration will help them create the music they need to create. The guitar is not here to put you in jail, that is the job of the cops. ( Michel Foucault actually said : "I don't write biography, that is the job of the police. ")

Even though I can't play very well I can see the possibilities extended range tunings could give to a flamenco performance. Especially if there are two guitarists and one is playing an extended range guitar and the other is on a six string. The six string player can hold down the parts an extended range guitar would muddy up, but the extended range guitar could stay out of the way when not needed and drop in an envelope of sound below that guitarist in baile and cante accompaniment when is makes musical sense.

Texturally the possibilities of a six string guitar played with cejilla and an extended range guitar together are quite vast. The six string guitar could be playing in one fret stop up high and the eight string could be used to take advantage of supporting harmony and bass line lower in the range. One of the very nice things about this kind of arrangement is that it give bass support, but without going into that "fart" sound of electric flamenco bass. So the basic guitar sonority is not broken into electric bass vs. guitar, but is left as two distinct guitar sonorities while allowing bass support. The support can go harmonically or be more bass like in how it thumps along and pushes the compas.

And in palos that are more loose in compas where there is a more elastic pulse, the extended range guitar can add further texture either in unison playing or provide a countless number of ways to add pinches of bass aire.

You can listen to the nattering nay bobs of negativity, or you can open your ears to new sounds. Either way, adding an extended range guitar to flamenco is not going to hurt or change a damn thing about traditional playing. Let's remember that the guitar and flamenco itself survived the introduction of the cajon. How can two extra bass strings on a guitar be such a big threat?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2014 1:58:40
 
jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Let's remember that the guitar and flamenco itself survived the introduction of the cajon.


The peruvian box was never a threat and was a very special innovation. It resolved some health problems and some musical problems in professionals that were there for long time . And it was much better than other previous sophisticated solutions, but wat the actual keys of its success that I live were room and economic factors for popular flamenco and aficcionados in Spain. It had a quick spread. I remember to see boxes in the late 80's made at home in gipsy shacks of my quarter with common plywood and plates.

SuperPaco said that when he saw the box the first time he concluded that was a flamenco instrument. And he introduced the box in a very special enviroment and place, avoiding initial opinions from "flamenco authorities".

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Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!

Sing and string - other flamenco blog
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2014 9:21:07
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7518
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Where to get an 8 string flamenc... (in reply to jmb

quote:

quote:

Let's remember that the guitar and flamenco itself survived the introduction of the cajon.


The peruvian box was never a threat and was a very special innovation. It resolved some health problems and some musical problems in professionals that were there for long time . And it was much better than other previous sophisticated solutions, but wat the actual keys of its success that I live were room and economic factors for popular flamenco and aficcionados in Spain. It had a quick spread. I remember to see boxes in the late 80's made at home in gipsy shacks of my quarter with common plywood and plates.

SuperPaco said that when he saw the box the first time he concluded that was a flamenco instrument. And he introduced the box in a very special enviroment and place, avoiding initial opinions from "flamenco authorities".

_____________________________


I guess I should explain my comment was sarcastic and pointed at those traditionalists who say the cajon ruined flamenco. That is why I said flamenco survived to cajon.

Also once at party about 13 years ago I walked into a bathroom where a certain cajon player who played for a certain fellow named Paco was sniffing lines of cocaine off a woman's bare culo as she bend over the sink. I said excuse me, so sorry, pardon me and used another bathroom.

The it occurred to me what actually happening. He was practicing cajon on her booty. That must be how he got so good.

_____________


Ever hear the tango letra meant to take the piss out of the "flamenco authorities" ?


Soy el flamenco Talibano
Soy el flamenco Talibano
Yo te digo lo que es bueno
Yo te digo lo que es malo!

Probably not because my friend Anton from La Coruna and I made it up when we were drunk one night. The authorities reminded us of the Taliban.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2014 12:39:45
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