Rough tuning a guitar

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Vince

Posts: 141
Joined: Oct. 21 2012
From: Germany

Rough tuning a guitar

I have made one of my first guitars a few years ago using a very stiff Sitka spruce top and maple. Unfortunately I had not enough experience and feeling for the top thickness.
The guitar is quit good in optical and playability aspects. But it sounds to thin and stiff. I have measured the top thickness with my new magic-probe thickness gouge.
The top is definitely to thick. The bracing is a babero bracing and rather light. I haven't use a bridge plate.

The top measures quit uniform 2,4 mm-2,5 mm.

My feeling says, that the guitar improve there sound drastically with a thinner top.
What would you do!
I can't sell the guitar and I don't like to play it because of the weak sound.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2014 18:28:56

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Vince)

The top on my first guitar is pretty thick, about 2.5 mm in the center but I thinned the edges out closer to 1.9 or 2.0. It actually sounds amazing. Dry, percussive, great flamenco sound. I also used a Barbero-ish bracing with the 5 fans and 2 high closing struts, with a non-angled harmonic bar.
It works really well with the edges thinned out and thick in the center, I'm not sure why. The only reason I don't build like that any more is I had comments saying the pulsacion was too stiff on similar instruments, and I wanted to try and find a more personal sound to my guitars.

Maybe you could strip the finish off the top and try thinning out the edges some? It's always interesting to see how the sound of the guitar changes as you go...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2014 20:10:49

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

Maybe you could strip the finish off the top and try thinning out the edges some? It's always interesting to see how the sound of the guitar changes as you go..

Yeah I second the sanding out a bit with the bridge on. I've found that thinning behind the bridge carefully, between the bridge and tail block helps loosen a stiff guitar. The areas between the bridge wings and edges are really tricky and that is where you can make or break the guitar. Too thin in those areas and the guitar can get weak sounding.

If I were doing that, my way is to begin lightly sanding behind the bridge and see how it effects the feel under the right hand and how the basses change. Then a tiny bit of sanding in the areas around the rim and more listening.

You can take several days to do this too, no need to evaluate it in a few hours. Sand a bit then let it sit and play it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 28 2014 1:51:38

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Vince)

quote:

What would you do!

I would take it as a learning project. take of the bridge and the golpeador, so that you dont have any limiting factors. Especially now that you have a tool that gives you the chance to control what you are doing.
Here you have two of my observations that you can use if you want:

* The sitka guitars that I have made was with a very high quality wood. VEry hard and stiff. I ended up with around 2mm in the center and a bit less near edges. But your wood might be different. Sitka has this weird "quality" that it suddenly gets to thin or wobbly. Like a piece of plastic. No resistance springyness. Its not long ago that I processed an extremely beautifull sitka soundboard in the wood stove, because I had made it to thin. It happened in less than a 10th of a milimeter

*I personally dont like the feel of flamenco guitars where the edges are a lot thinnner than the center. The sound may be decent, but the feel is slow and the feedback is vague. It lacks the more sparkly quality of a more even soundboard.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 28 2014 7:05:33

Vince

Posts: 141
Joined: Oct. 21 2012
From: Germany

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Vince)

Thank you all for your opinions.
I will strip the finish and take the bridge of.
Nowadays I'm a much better bridge maker and I will make a new one!

the guitar has binding, head plate and backstrip made of walnut.
Do you ever use walnut for the bridge?
The wood in my shop has an density of 0,65 kg/dm3!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 28 2014 17:28:33

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Vince)

Yes, on a guitar which does not have historical value, its easyer to plane down the old bridge, heat it off and make a new one.
Walnut has more damping than rosewood. I wouldnt use it myself. A rosewood blank is a couple of euros. and sometimes you can get one with a paler color that will mix with the bindings.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2014 7:03:35

Vince

Posts: 141
Joined: Oct. 21 2012
From: Germany

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Meanwhile I have also decided against walnut, because of the damping effect.
I have also some worry that the stability in the piece in front the Bone becomes too weak or if making the bridge broader it looks not very nicely.
Years ago I have bought some several pieces of nice Santos Rosewood. Some pieces are definitively too narrow for guitars Backs. So I will be able to cut a lifelong stock for Bridges and Bindings.
I have played with the thought of walnut because I am asked over and over again for tropical wood substitute. Slowly the buyers become sensitively about sustainability of the used wood. Personally I call it a very good development.
Maybe that's why my guitars made from maple and cypress are selling better. Or these are just my better Guitars ;-).
But I think in case from maple and cypress the sustainability is not given too.
I have heard that there are timber suppliers for cypress wood in Turkey. Does somebody have more information about this?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2014 7:51:47

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Vince)

Santos rosewood is normally not a rosewood. Just a name they use in order to sell the wood. It is very often some sort of Pau Ferro and the dampening is very high. And its absolutely not 'politically correct' speaking of environment.
A lot of Indian rosewood comes from plantation and is therefor ok environmentally seen.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2014 6:48:07

Vince

Posts: 141
Joined: Oct. 21 2012
From: Germany

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Vince)

I know that this is not a true Rosewood.
I bought it as "pao ferro/santos rosewood/morado"
I know there are a lot of excellence pao ferro guitars out there.
Do you think it is really more damping than East Indian Rosewood?
For me it seems to be a bit harder an denser than Indian Rosewood.
For comparison I have also some beams of Rosewood in my shop.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2014 8:02:51

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Vince)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vince

I know that this is not a true Rosewood.
I bought it as "pao ferro/santos rosewood/morado"
I know there are a lot of excellence pao ferro guitars out there.
Do you think it is really more damping than East Indian Rosewood?
For me it seems to be a bit harder an denser than Indian Rosewood.
For comparison I have also some beams of Rosewood in my shop.

The Pao Ferro I have is heavy, dense and has a tap tone about like a wet sock. I've had it for years and have never found a use for it. I certainly wouldn't use it on a guitar. Of course wood varies from tree to tree hopefully what you have is much better.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2014 13:29:32

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Vince)

Walnut with high damping?

Which kind of walnut?

Pau-Ferro just means Iron-wood ands covers a whole bunch of different species. Some of it really hard and dense an some good for guitar making. It is also often called Caviuna.

Iron wood is a name used to denote or group any heavy hard wood that has an interlocking grain structure, some is so hard they call it Bullet wood and make plaster and cement work trowels with it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2014 22:38:22

Vince

Posts: 141
Joined: Oct. 21 2012
From: Germany

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Vince)

The walnut I have, has been grown in south Germany and the species called "French walnut",
Juglans regia.
This wood is used al lot in Germany also for classical guitars.
It do not sound very flamenco but I heard a very good concert played on a classical guitar made from European walnut.

Maybe I will saw a few bridge planks from walnut and my pao fero and check the tap ton in comparison to my Indian rosewo blanks.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2014 7:44:27

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Pau-Ferro just means Iron-wood ands covers a whole bunch of different species. Some of it really hard and dense an some good for guitar making. It is also often called Caviuna.

Actually iron wood is a general term for many different species but pao ferro (Morado, Bolivian RW, Santos RW, whatever you want to call it) is a specific South American tree. At least that's my understanding. The term Caviuna means nothing usually denoting any dark colored tropical hardwood.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2014 14:33:32

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Vince)

John,

I know what you are saying, but I'm confused, because I know Pau Ferro to be the same as Caviuna, I not saying that's correct, but that it means the same thing to me. When someone says Caviuna or Pau Ferro I know which wood they are talking about, but when you translate it to English, "Iron wood" it becomes non specific and covers a range of woods. But I'm going to ask if in Brazil 'Pau Ferro' means one tree or many kinds of trees or both. The curious thing is if in Portuguese it means both a specific tree and also means several kinds of trees that will explain why the lumber industry lumps it all together when they package flooring. In English Pau Ferro seems to mean one to three different trees ( seems to be three trees called 'Pau Ferro' with specific taxonomical names by searching English and Portuguese) , but in English and Portuguese it seems to also search out as non specific or means at least two more species if searched by scientific taxonomy.

I am beginning to think of naming wood from South America to be like going to a paint store to buy paint. Say you want Purple wall paint, ok you see there are four paint companies with paint samples displayed on paper swatches. You look for what you know as purple by eye. Then you compare the color made by four different companies and each paint maker calls Purple something else.

Swatch 1. says Evening Mist, 2. says Morning Sky, 3. says Dawn Blast, 4. says Sundown Remnants..........but each one looks like the same purple.

It's off the subject, but nature is being identified not by scientific taxonomy, but by corporate proprietary naming. They can call it whatever they wish to call it if they are selling it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2014 23:43:40

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Vince)

I have done a few bridges in walnut, works well IMHO.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2014 0:57:22

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

I have done a few bridges in walnut, works well IMHO.

I have not used Walnut, but the Claro Walnut from California or the English Walnut, still grows in CA, but is harder that Claro, would both make good bridges I would think. Claro walnut is really light an fairly strong, it seems like a good wood to try for a flamenco bridge.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2014 2:04:55

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Vince)

quote:

Do you think it is really more damping than East Indian Rosewood?
For me it seems to be a bit harder an denser than Indian Rosewood.

Yes, I think its a lot more damping than rosewood. Indian rosewood is a very good bridge wood. So is Madagascan rosewood. The bridge is a very important piece of a guitar. I wouldnt use any other wood than these two rosewoods.
Backs and sides wood is a lot less important and there are a lot of brilliant sounding cheap wood out there that is not being used because its not considered "fine" enough.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2014 7:53:04

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

It's off the subject, but nature is being identified not by scientific taxonomy, but by corporate proprietary naming. They can call it whatever they wish to call it if they are selling it.

I agree completely. After a few years of getting ripped by wood vendors it finally became obvious even to a dunce like me that most of the names used (Caviuna, etc.) are nothing but inventions of the wood sharks. I probably won't be buying much more hard wood anyway since at my age I don't have enough time to wait for it to cure.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2014 13:35:38

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Vince)

I remember when Alan Carruth, did some damping tests/density tests of various species of wood to compare them. He mentioned some of the results if I remember correctly he said something about Brazilian Rosewood and Osage Orange having very similar results.....I do remember there was a wood dealer who said that prompted a rush of calls and emails about how much Osage Orange he had cut into backs & sids sets.

But the takeaway lesson was that you really can't tell about damping qualities across species without testing the wood in some empirical way. I think I will follow up on that and refresh my memory of what data he found.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2014 22:34:07

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to estebanana)

I think the bottom line is that we all have to sell guitars and traditional sales are generally 75 % or more of the market. The fact that some builders venture off this road into a more esoteric community of artisans who build differently, begs the question, does this prompt a major move toward a future trend of sales that will move past traditional sales.

I think it's going to be recognized as being a longer time to transcend the obvious traditional styles with basic East Indian rosewood, in anticipation of replacement woods. This doesn't mean that there is no interest, just that the major interest is still in the traditional point of view.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2014 12:37:29

Vince

Posts: 141
Joined: Oct. 21 2012
From: Germany

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to jshelton5040)

I have made the ultimate tap tone comparison between my bridge wood.
And what should I say? Pao Fero in fact sounds as lively as a wet sack full of wet socks! Remarkable!
If someone needs some nice looking firewood for his workshop just call!
Maybe my kitchen knifes need some new handle?

But my European Walnut sounds very nice!

East Indian rosewood: very clear ringing tone medium/high pitch
Walnut: clear ping, little more damping than rosewood but lighter
Ebony: very high ping with much more damping than rosewood
Pao Fero: bub bub with very high damping

So I have to buy new rosewood for bridges!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2014 18:03:28

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Vince)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vince

So I have to buy new rosewood for bridges!

See if you can find a chunk of Madagascar RW. What I have is light weight, mills easily and has a very clear taptone. It's not a particularly attractive wood and tends to have large pores but we use it on all of our flamenco guitars. I like it much better than E. Indian for bridges.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2014 18:24:34

Vince

Posts: 141
Joined: Oct. 21 2012
From: Germany

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to jshelton5040)

I know Madagascar RW as a nice looking stripy wood similar to Brasilian RW
I have a pice of Honduras Rosewood that looks uniform and less interesting.

Do you mean Honduras Rosewood?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2014 20:40:05

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Vince)

The ebony, that wood is too heavy, lots of steel string makers have changed to other woods because as Tom says traditions get challenged. Once steel string makers used only ebony and now there is a diverse amount of woods they will talk about.

Walnut and other rosewoods, I think can be just as good as the best Brazilian rosewood if chosen carefully. But honestly, I long for Brazilian rosewood bridges, but I stopped using them so I would not run into shipping trouble with USFG or US Customs or EU customs.

So sad, the last guitar I finished has pegs, and I love to put abalone or this yellow/grey highly grained fossil ivory buttons in the end of the pegs, but I stopped that for the same reason. I put Japanese abalone on a bridge tie block last year a shipped it, but I felt I was taking a big chance.

Anyway, other bridge woods I have used are Black Acacia, it's the cousin of Koa. And Wenge. I've tested some rosewoods form Thailand, Tulip wood and Kingwood, and several others. The Black Acacia was very good and makes a fine bridge. I thought the Wenge was also good, but difficult to work with on account of being easy to shred. But once it is it glued down a had finish on it is stable.

You have to remember about bridge wood, it's not always about which species, but which particular tree...not all wood of the same species is identical. And the I still have hopes for Claro Walnut, which is light and strong. Indian rose wood is the one I use the most, but I keep bridge blanks and half carved bridges from Indian rosewood and other woods in my bridge blank box to compare and weigh when selecting bridges.

I think the bridge is often the most elusive part of building, its shape thickness of the wings and saddle mound, flexibility, mass of the tie block, overall weight, I think all these factors are important, but difficult to learn how to manage in relation to the qualities in a top. If you follow a good schematic and make a racy, pared down bridge you come out ok, but optimizing it past that point I think is really tricky.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2014 23:09:58

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Vince)

I presume by Black Acacia you mean Acacia melanoxylon, which 'round here is known as Australian or Tasmanian Blackwood.
I agree, makes a nice lightweight bridge.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 4 2014 5:19:48

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Vince)

quote:

I know Madagascar RW as a nice looking stripy wood similar to Brasilian RW
I have a pice of Honduras Rosewood that looks uniform and less interesting.

Do you mean Honduras Rosewood?

Most of the Madagascar R bridge blanks that I have are uniform looking. Some have a stripe here and there. Its easy to know its madagascar by the smell of it. Its a lot sharper smelling than indian and Braz. I buy my Madagascar bridge blanks in Madinter. I dont find it to be lighter or better than Indian Rosewood but it has a beautifull color.

I dont use Madagascar for backs and sides anymore. The quality is simply to low.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 4 2014 7:12:23

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

I presume by Black Acacia you mean Acacia melanoxylon, which 'round here is known as Australian or Tasmanian Blackwood.
I agree, makes a nice lightweight bridge.

Yep, and it makes great backs & sides. Know any wood dealers who will ship me some?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 4 2014 8:12:25

Vince

Posts: 141
Joined: Oct. 21 2012
From: Germany

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to estebanana)

Here in Germany you can buy Blackwood from "ESPEN-Tonewood"
A Set AAA is 170 € and AA 140 € (+VAT).

LINK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 4 2014 8:56:42

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Vince)

I like it, send me 50 sets.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 4 2014 11:40:54

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Rough tuning a guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Most of the Madagascar R bridge blanks that I have are uniform looking. Some have a stripe here and there. Its easy to know its madagascar by the smell of it. Its a lot sharper smelling than indian and Braz. I buy my Madagascar bridge blanks in Madinter. I dont find it to be lighter or better than Indian Rosewood but it has a beautifull color.

I dont use Madagascar for backs and sides anymore. The quality is simply to low.

That pretty much describes what I have. I bought a large plank of Madagascar RW many years ago with the intention of sawing sides and backs out of it but it developed a check making it impossible for anything but bridges and overlays. This wood is pretty much a uniform dark brown with a few darker streaks. It will provide all the bridges I can use for the rest of my life and since I resaw them myself they are all nicely quartered.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 4 2014 14:11:55