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Hey guys, so i've been trying sevillanas for a while, and have quite a few questions about it.
1st and foremost, Does sevillanas have to be either in the key of C Major or Am ? No way arround it?
2 , Why is it that most sevillanas sound very similar to others? I'd understand that most Intros should be the same to give the feel of sevillanas, however, even the coplas sound very similar, and i don't mean using the same scales, but actually using the same simultaneous notes. , Since i don't have many sevillanas memorized i went on google to grab a few names, Paco pena, Eugen sedko, bob sutherby ( What you find if you google sevillanas guitar ) all are super similar with subtle differences.
Adding a video of me playing to demonstrate my confusion .
So yeah i think of the compas in 3's , so i counted the compas of that link , and it has 37 compas' of 3's or 12 compas' of 12's and quarter a compas ( 37/3 = 12.3 ) , but it should be 12 shouldn't it? How does that work out, The compas starts of with an intro of " 2 and 3 and " Then 1 , i start the count at that 1, which leads to 37 compas' of 3's , counting it as 37 compas of 3's , i start at Beat 1 1st compas, i end at beat 2 35th compas, That still leaves me 2 compas' where i have no idea what should come in .
Ok now following that, ( After 37th compas, the 38th is labelled ) 2nd sevillana, what does that mean? it's 8 compas' of 3's or 2 compas of 12's, Pauses, gives u a 2 beat count then starts the salida for the same length 37 compas' , Now i'd understand that could be another Sevillanas , for example if i started my first 1 in C, my 2nd one is in Am , but what do i do with the 8 compas' in between? ( or 2 of 12's )
I'm so sorry for this essay, it annoys me that i don't understand this. I hope any of you can help!
RE: Questions about Sevillanas (in reply to ZaidRockso)
Sevillanas is a song, usually for dancing, nowadays in ferias, notably La Feria de Sevilla. There are 100's if not 1000`s of them, every year new ones. Guitar solos are rare and are usually taken from the song.
RE: Questions about Sevillanas (in reply to ZaidRockso)
Sevillanas can be in any key. I count it in 3's cus I like to but most dancers I've encountered count it in 6. It's a set song with set parts so that drunk people at a party can all participate without any surprises. Here's a decent source of info: http://www.ravennaflamenco.com/articles/comp2.html As Morante said its a sung/danced song, this guitar solo stuff is just a spin off from that.
RE: Questions about Sevillanas (in reply to ZaidRockso)
Have a look at the dance. All four sevillanas have their particular steps, but the compas is the same, You should learn to dance it instead of playing a guitar solo.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Questions about Sevillanas (in reply to ZaidRockso)
yeah Sevillanas can be in any key with the capo anywhere you want ...some older ones that i really liked were in a different key for each part.... the complete Sevillanas would be played 4 times ...
@Morante ,, its a great pity that most of the sevillanas you hear in the Feria de Abril usually have a lot of sequenced synths and drum machines ...you know the stuff i mean ..... and yet i really like playing them , i learned lots of them ...
i always thought that it would be a great foro challenge for lots of us to write one part of a sevillanas and in the challenge choose the best 4 to make a cool forosevillanas and get a good foro player to put them all together....
theres not that much interest in sevillanas here for that though ...
heres one i play as best i can , that a took of an old tape and is in four different keys .. Am ...B maj ..F#maj ...Em...
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Questions about Sevillanas (in reply to ZaidRockso)
sorry just re read your request for question 3 ...
as morante said ..its a dance ...so the first bit is an salida ... the dances are waiting to start ...you , the player are setting the scene...
the very first bit is the rhythm .. for example ...this will say how fast it will be and the key etc .( no dancing ) then there will be a bit of the motif of the song .. the real intro .. or entrada ... this is what the dancers are waiting for ..
then the song starts , with dancing ..and the playing based on the entrada ... this will happen 3 times and finish ( one 1) possibly the 3 times could be 3 the same or 2 the same and the third different to finish ..
you should think of it more in parts and sections so you dont get lost rather than a total number of compases....its much easier
edit ...not explained well .....in my little badly played example , the first rythm intro starts at 001 until 007... them the little motif from 008 until 10 and the dancers would actually start at 13 ...More or less as i am talking in time rather than beats ... helpful ??
edit 2 if you look at morantes dancing vid ... you will see that although the music has started (0013) the dancers are waiting ..... then the singing starts (020) ''que no se leer.. que no se leer ..etc '' the motive or theme..still no dancing ... then it starts ....(022) compare a few sevillanas dances .. this will happen every time .... ..
RE: Questions about Sevillanas (in reply to ZaidRockso)
hey kiko , thanks for trying your best to help me out , unfortunately i still don't understand how long should each section last for, as you/others have stated before, it's a basic dance, so there be a basic amount of " salidas " i'm allowed " coplas should start at specific places, etc, which i still don't get very well. I'll keep researching hopefully i'll get what i want, thanks!
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Questions about Sevillanas (in reply to El Kiko)
sorry its a bit big ..... this is a very basic sevillanas ... not the most interesting i will admit but in terms of starting and stopping and lengh etc it is right ... i play it sort of here .. the only thing is of the 3 rounds i go down one octave on the second one to make a tiny bit of interest ... this you could learn in about 2 mins ....actually if you were ever at a feria . you would be tired of listening to them after a while ...
RE: Questions about Sevillanas (in reply to ZaidRockso)
That has helped so much, i can finally fill a full 36 bar compass . Then i read your 4 + 4 + ( 12x3 ) = 44 , Shouldn't it be 4 + 4 + 4 + ( 12 x 2) = 36, after your earlier explanation it started being clear to me that it should last 36 bars, and i eventually realized that what hapenned in my recording was i missed 1 bar, compared to other dances , and it all started to seem 36 bars and started being clearer. Tried the 36 bar idea with the compas + added that bar that i missed and it fit.
Can you explain what you meant by 4+4 + 12x3? which would amount to 44 not 36?
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Questions about Sevillanas (in reply to ZaidRockso)
no it can never be 2 x 12...there are always 3 dances in each part ... and there are 4 parts ....
where as the intro can change a bit , and can be made longer and have a few barws put in to pad it out .. the dance part will never change or it would not be a sevillanas ...
there is always a..... a rythm part first .. then the entrance to the dance / song then three rounds of dance end
that whole thing happens 4 times and that is a complete sevillanas ... the example i put up was just very basic si the intro was very short and to the point ..
you seem to be resisting the form idea ... where as 3 x 12 is 36 ,, you have the intros to add on to that ...but the main part will be 36 ( the dance that is )
I really think it bast to learn it as a form in parts and not by numbers .. of all the people i know in Cordoba who have been dancing, playing or singing forever .. i dont think one of them would tell you how many bars are in a sevillanas ... and yet when you hear the parts everyone knows where they are ... and it works....
however ... not being a good teacher .... i found this for you to read (and hear)
RE: Questions about Sevillanas (in reply to ZaidRockso)
Okkkk , i think your last post helped, the page you linked certainly did, thing is i wasn't aware of which 3 are the main dance of sevillanas, but i think i do now, uploaded a new video now, can you confirm i got the concept now ? :$ thanks
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Questions about Sevillanas (in reply to ZaidRockso)
Some math of the sections might help understand the structure better. First of all, I think of a single compas as two bars of 3, or 6 beats total. G7-C in one measure, C major in the second. What happens is there is a pick up measure that states the tonic chord and this also functions as the harmonic answer to the melody. We tend to feel the second beat of this measure stronger, and various rasgueados will emphasize this. The different sections are bridged by this rhythmic phenomenon.
Intro compases: this can be any length of bars, and often starts with the pick measure as described above. As kiko said, dancers take this time to position themselves with a partner. AT it's shortest, it must be 3 bars, including the pick up measure plus one compas to hear the tonailty stated by the two chords. A safe length would be 9 bars, that being the pick up measure plus 4 compases. This always feels nice and square. Important point is the final bar stops rhythm on beat 2!
Entrance/Salida theme: THis is a short meoldy, often the cola or the tail end of the main melody. While it is played the dancer waits. It is 3 bars long but often starts with pick up notes from the previous bar of rhtyhm. THe theme often ends on count 3 of the 3rd bar and the guitar answers with the pick up measure of rhythm described above. We will count that bar though in the next section.
Main melody: the main body of the sevillanas structure is this part. Starts with the pick up bar of rhythm and states one full compas, so 3 bars. The dancer begins dancing right on the 1 of the pick up measure (even though we accent count 2 with rasgueado). The 3rd bar here again as before lets the compas accent and stop on count 2. Next the melody often (not always) begins with pick up notes like the entrance theme, in that last bar of rhtyhm (round about count3). It continues across an other 6 bars and attatches to the entrance theme as the tail end (we know already is 3 bars). This entire section, which repeats, therefore is 3+6+3=12 bars.
Main melody repeats 3 times. It ends on what would be the down beat of a 4th repetition. So the main body is in fact 37 bars total, not counting the intro compas and entrance theme. A proper number for the whole single square sevillana would therefore be 9+3+37.
there would normally be 4 in a set, and there are no rules about which ones to do as they all fit the 4 different choreographies. Just be careful in cases dancers want to mix up the normal order, you might think there is one more left or leave an awkward pause when they want to continue after stoping on what you feel was the last one. In many cases there might not be even a pause between the 4 sevillanas and you just keep going right into the next one after hitting the down beat of the last bar (effectively making it be the FIRST bar of the next sevillana), but it is also ok to have a sort of non rhythmic pause after each one.
Edit:what you did in your video at 06 sec, is an extra part of the intro compas. You could have started the entrance melody there instead. The reason this happens relates to the dancers not being quite ready to start, and you do that little extra phrase of compas....in some cases I have had to do that repetatively while they get it together. LOL. Anyway, sounds like you got it.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Questions about Sevillanas (in reply to Ricardo)
yes i would say thats right .. a bit more complicated and you have the odd numbers as you count the last beat as a whole bar ..... which technically is correct rather than 12 bars and a beat .... Anyway , due to the down beats on some sevillanas more than others i do think of it more in 6 than 3 .. that just kinda depends ... honestly i never really counted them before , like the blues , i never really counted 12 bars , you just know cos it fells right and the changes occur where they should ....
strange thing is ZaidRockso ,, i dont get any audio on you videos , here or on you tube , but i do on the others ... must be me ...i will check things again , strange ...
RE: Questions about Sevillanas (in reply to ZaidRockso)
Thanks so much Ricardo an Elkiko , both of you have taken my understanding of sevillanas from nothing to great, or i'd hope so anyways , thanks for actually trying to make me understand instead of just answering questions, that really helped! I'm stil as my foro suggest, an afficionado , when i'm a fellow like you guys i hope i give back to the coomunity!
And i'm not so sure why you don't get audio on my videos Kiko , i thought it would be a country ban, but it's not like i'm violating any copyright, so i'm not sure what's hapenning :(
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Questions about Sevillanas (in reply to ZaidRockso)
yeah i dont get that either ,pity cos i wanted to hear ...the 2 sevillanas here i dont , but on your channel i hear everything else .... a country ban would not allow me to see anything ....
is it cos its an unlisted video ? although it seems that Rcardo could hear it ... weird i never came across this before .... i will investigate .//
RE: Questions about Sevillanas (in reply to ZaidRockso)
Nope, i tried it in incognito , it was fine , it might be that the volume is too low, i didn't record it loud, could be it, i have to dime it to hear it fine.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Questions about Sevillanas (in reply to ZaidRockso)
nope i checked all the settings i could think of here every other youtube vid plays ok on and off this page , but no sound on your 2 on this page only ....
2nd check .....ah ha .... i got my little girls tablet ,( pink with yellow flowers) , and on that its different
i get a warning up saying '' the certificate of this video cannot be checked , abort , report . continue ...' so continue and i can hear it , ok .. although i see that the second one is very quiete..
on my computer i get the warning that the certificate cannot be checked but dont get any sound .... iwas just reading about resetting you tube browser certificates blah blah ... later i will try ..
funny thats never happeened before just yours ....
BTW .. the 'felow ' ' afficionado'' thing on here is just by the ammount of posts you made, not by how well you play.....
Even though Ricardo and I are both marked as 'fellow'' the is a big difference in playing ....i suppose he'll get there eventually ...
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