Building a modification of a 1968 Conde

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Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

Building a modification of a 1968 Conde

Well, it's about time to try and do a semi tutorial building a modification of a 1968 Conde.

Nino Ricardo's 1955 Faustino Conde had a deep bass for a guitar of that size so I will use a slightly bigger pattern to try and emulate the bass. This 1968 Faustino guitar used to belong to Paco de Lucia's brother, Raymond.

It was sold to a friend of mine in 1969 at the San Antonio Hemisfair, when the two brothers performed here. The 50's and 60's Sobrinos de Esteso guitars were pretty much the same design but characteristically different from the less expensive Conde apprentice models.

My trip to Madrid in 1965 found me looking in different guitar shops to find a good guitar for myself. I checked out the Conde shop in town and was shown a Faustino Conde, which I should have bought except it sold for $350 at the time when a first class Ramirez flamenco was selling for $200 tourist price.

The money difference played a significant role with me since I was on a limited budget, so I bought a Ramirez right before I returned home. It was a good choice since I was able to resell it for $650 the same week, back home in Dallas, and this allowed me to keep my used Felix Manzanero to play for quite a few years.

I don't consider myself as a full time guitar maker, even though I have built guitars as a secondary business for 53 years; some of those years full time.

I think to be a full time maker, is if a person is born into it through a family operation, or someone who is just plain nuts, or doesn't know better. To be humorous, "What do you do when a guitar maker rings your front door bell; pay him for the Pizza."

But it was a passion that got me started and it is still passion for this art that has helped me maintain a long association with it. And in spite of any thoughts on the side, I imagine that practically every guitar maker will tell you the same.

I will attempt to supply pictures and videos with this tutorial to explain more fully what I'm doing with this modification, and because of this application, the guitar will be known as a Tom Blackshear guitar due to the motif change and structural modification.

But I pay homage to the Conde tradition, for this is where it started.

So, as soon as my wife gets home from work, I'll start taking pictures and a video to start the program.

And of course, you are welcome, at any time, to ask questions or make comments, serious I hope

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2014 13:26:40

Ricardo

Posts: 14818
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Cool any photos of Ramon's guitar that you are copying? I know the guitar Paco plays in Rito y Geografia, the blanca with machine heads is 1968, there is a great zoom into the soundhole during the rumba when his buddy Carlos is playing a tremolo on it. I often wondered if that guitar, which looked quite used in the video, was actually Ramon's, as you see him playing it here:

http://youtu.be/OOt7MLkbgug

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2014 19:52:50

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I often wondered if that guitar, which looked quite used in the video, was actually Ramon's, as you see him playing it here:

It's not the 1968 I drew the plan with, as the color was darker, although the rosette looks pretty close to the same, as I can remember. Anyway the 1971 recording has got to be another guitar, since Raymond's '68 guitar was sold in 1969.

I don't have the guitar here anymore, since my friend retired and moved out of town years ago. The playing scale was 660 CM but I'll modify this tutorial to 655 MM to see how it turns out.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2014 22:12:52

Ricardo

Posts: 14818
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

quote:

I often wondered if that guitar, which looked quite used in the video, was actually Ramon's, as you see him playing it here:

It's not the 1968 I drew the plan with, as the color was darker, although the rosette looks pretty close to the same, as I can remember. Anyway the 1971 recording has got to be another guitar, since Raymond's '68 guitar was sold in 1969.

I don't have the guitar here anymore, since my friend retired and moved out of town years ago. The playing scale was 660 MM but I'll modify this tutorial to 655 MM to see how it turns out.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

Darker color? It's black and white!

Anyway there is a color picture of that guitar (Paco with Juan de la Vara) it was honey orange like most conde's. Moot point if it was sold in 69 anyway. I was also surprised how white those guitars look in black and white when in real life they are more orange...same deal with Melchor's guitar. One of my favorite details of those old guitars is the neck is stained a very dark red color.

Anyway, looking forward to how it turns out.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2014 2:49:40

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Darker color? It's black and white! Anyway there is a color picture of that guitar (Paco with Juan de la Vara) it was honey orange like most conde's.

Yes, I think it was more honey orange but more burnt orange than honey: maybe just sun exposure.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2014 3:37:55

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Here is the first entry to get started for the tutorial:

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2014 3:59:29

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

One of my favorite details of those old guitars is the neck is stained a very dark red color.

I had wondered if the darker colour neck was mahogany rather than cedar wood?

Thank you for posting the thread. I have no desire to build a guitar but I really enjoy reading the luthiers' discussions.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2014 7:25:31

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

One of my favorite details of those old guitars is the neck is stained a very dark red color.

quote:

I had wondered if the darker colour neck was mahogany rather than cedar wood

Through the fifties and early sixties a lot of these guitars had the necks varnished in what appears to be a thick synthetic finish obscuring the natural beauty of the wood. Many have been refinished in FP over the years but I have kept my 1965 example original complete with the marks made by cheap cejillas. You will also see that an authentic sweat mark is also visible on the back.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2014 13:31:57

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

Thank you for posting the thread. I have no desire to build a guitar but I really enjoy reading the luthiers' discussions

I would like to second that.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2014 13:41:06

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to RobJe)

Could you shrink the picture down a little so that it will stay with-in the margins of REGULAR POST, THANKS A MILLION.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe

Through the fifties and early sixties a lot of these guitars had the necks varnished in what appears to be a thick synthetic finish obscuring the natural beauty of the wood. Many have been refinished in FP over the years but I have kept my 1965 example original complete with the marks made by cheap cejillas. You will also see that an authentic sweat mark is also visible on the back.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2014 16:19:51

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Shrunk - sorry for this Tom
By the way, this 1965 guitar has a completely different bracing from the one you describe.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2014 18:12:23

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to RobJe)

Not sure about this but my 1965 pattern is about the same as the other two.

However, at the shop in the city, Condes were built different with 5 long braces across the top with no stiffeners at the bottom, most of the guitars were made by the apprentices for lessor cost under the Conde Hermanos label, rather than Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso. If you have an Esteso label then you might have a collectors item.

In 1965, these guitars cost about 90 to 120 dollars as compared to the Sobrinos which cost about $350, US. I'm basing the costs when I was there in 1965.

Perhaps you could draw a rough draft of the braces on your guitar, and check your label inside the guitar.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2014 18:38:48

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

The bracing is very similar to the 1951 Sabicas Barbero guitar (plan by R Brune available) but the harmonic bar is not inclined - just straight across. The five central braces seem to be parallel as in more modern Conde designs. This is just by looking with mirror - I don't have the means to take measurements and draw an accurate plan.

The label acknowledges Esteso's widow and reads Vda y Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso (picture below). This label was used for the best guitars (signed and dated) from about 1958, replacing the older black label that had the same words. The label continued after the death of Esteso's widow (c1960) until about 1966. It was replaced with the Sobrinos de Esteso label which lasted until about 1974. After that guitars were labelled Hermanos Conde - Sobrinos de Esteso.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2014 20:09:51

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to RobJe)

I only know what I saw in Madrid and this seems to be something else I know nothing about

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2014 0:29:52

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I think I'll start the top first so that it can be glued up and resting while I build the other parts to the guitar: I'm starting with a top thickness of 2 to 2.1 MM and then I'll sand it down to close to 1.9 MM.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2014 0:48:22

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Can you demonstrate in some way how flexible the top will be at that thickness?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2014 3:39:58

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

The label acknowledges Esteso's widow and reads Vda y Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso (picture below). This label was used for the best guitars (signed and dated) from about 1958,

Would you be kind enough to show a close up of the rosette?

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2014 13:53:22

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

Condes were built different with 5 long braces across the top with no stiffeners at the bottom, most of the guitars were made by the apprentices for lessor cost under the Conde Hermanos label, rather than Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso

If this adds anything; I've seen a 1971 Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso with 5 parallel braces and two 'stiffeners' at the bottom.

Are these stiffeners sometimes referred to as closing braces/struts?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2014 13:57:36

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

The label acknowledges Esteso's widow and reads Vda y Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso (picture below). This label was used for the best guitars (signed and dated) from about 1958,

Would you be kind enough to show a close up of the rosette?

I think RobJe has posted it before, half way down this thread. It's a typical rosette, same as Paco's in the black and white kitchen film.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=157692&appid=&p=&mpage=4&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#158277

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2014 14:00:44

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to estebanana)

It's a fairly stiff Englemann spruce top, but not quite as stiff as European spruce. This video is done with moderate but firm pressure on the lower bout. And when the top is installed, I'll sand it to its preferred thickness to comply with proper top flex and tension. The original guitar was very thin, about 1/16th" around the sound-hole area.

When the guitar is finished, I'll try and give all the thicknesses of the complete top.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2014 14:17:47

RobJe

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Joined: Dec. 16 2006

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 25 2014 14:56:41

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2014 14:42:51

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe

quote:

Would you be kind enough to show a close up of the rosette?

As requested. Rob

Mil Gracia

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2014 14:49:41

LandKGuitars

Posts: 19
Joined: Oct. 23 2014

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Hi Tom, thanks for the tutorial. I was wondering where can i purchase those plans? Thank you.

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L & K Guitars
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2014 17:30:27

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to LandKGuitars)

After this tutorial I'll get together with the GAL and see if they care to publish it. But right now, there is no publication for it.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2014 17:46:25

LandKGuitars

Posts: 19
Joined: Oct. 23 2014

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

thanks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2014 3:33:16

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to LandKGuitars)

Here is my technique for installing a rosette. I route out the circle just enough for the rosette to fit flush and then glue it in with LMI's white polyvinyl builders glue and then swell the rosette tight with hot water on a rag; clean up the water and clamp it overnight. This is basically the fitting process and then I'll show how the rosette is clamped down later.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF9n836Stm_0XV2dMiaPupg

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2014 13:46:24

Morante

Posts: 2180
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

However, at the shop in the city, Condes were built different with 5 long braces across the top with no stiffeners at the bottom, most of the guitars were made by the apprentices for lessor cost under the Conde Hermanos label, rather than Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso. If you have an Esteso label then you might have a collectors item.

In 1965, these guitars cost about 90 to 120 dollars as compared to the Sobrinos which cost about $350, US. I'm basing the costs when I was there in 1965.

I have one of these, but I imagine that it is worth nothing

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2014 14:32:38

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Morante)

Here is the glued in rosette being cleaned of any excess glue, with a rag and a little water.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2014 15:07:26

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

The rosette is scraped after it has dried overnight.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2014 15:18:16

rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Interesting post, generous sharing of your time.
Do you have an idea of the consistency of specs for the guitars built at that time? I mean, have you had a chance to look at a decent sample set of guitars to verify that they were actually built the same way? and that, at least for the same builder (as their might be variance between builders in the same shop???).

I am curious to know if they had 'strict' building practices or if it was pretty lose.
Thanks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2014 15:57:09