RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde

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Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to rogeliocan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogeliocan

Interesting post, generous sharing of your time.
Do you have an idea of the consistency of specs for the guitars built at that time? I mean, have you had a chance to look at a decent sample set of guitars to verify that they were actually built the same way? and that, at least for the same builder (as their might be variance between builders in the same shop???).

I am curious to know if they had 'strict' building practices or if it was pretty lose.
Thanks

Most of this I can't answer for you except the three patterns I Have in my shop. I met with Faustino Conde in 1965 when I was in Madrid but I spoke very little Spanish and there was no ongoing dialog.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2014 16:17:24

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Here is the glue down of the rosette support inside the top:

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2014 20:09:33

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

A follow up will be put in place for the shaping of the fan braces, hopefully tonight. There will be a change from the Conde brace shape to more like a 1948 Barbero guitar I built some years ago, back in the 70's; more toward a half round instead of a pyramid style.

Also, due to the slightly smaller box with a shorter playing scale, there had to be a modification of the brace's length; although ever-so-slight. But the ideal fan brace placement was kept with the original guitar's design.

And with this modification I will try and explain the fine tuning process, which might take several posts to complete.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2014 13:25:42

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

think I'll start the top first

This is fascinating stuff!

Just being a player,I do have a question...What is important to you when selecting a top - or any other part during construction?

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2014 14:12:17

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to SephardRick)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SephardRick

quote:

think I'll start the top first

Tom,

This is fascinating stuff!

Just being a player,I do have a question...What is important to you when selecting a top - or any other part during construction?

Rick,

I have been building guitars since 1958 and in 1974, when I went back to building full time, I built a flamenco guitar with western red cedar fence post material; with wide grain and low quality music wood.

The sound was phenomenal and I still have that guitar, but I would never sell it as it looks terrible. Also, it's in need of tuning peg replacement. What I'm trying to say is that guitar tone is in the hands of each individual builder, not so much from a set rule of wood quality.

I give this as my own personal opinion with the two types of wood I use, Spruce and Cedar.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2014 14:57:59

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Here is some pretty extensive work on the top but there will be more as I progress with it's display of finishing out before installation.

Also, to put this video on this page to remind us of this build.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2014 0:24:33

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Interesting....seems you focus a lot more on those braces than the top itself? Or that comes later maybe?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2014 13:36:45

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Interesting....seems you focus a lot more on those braces than the top itself? Or that comes later maybe?

Ricardo,

Actually I set the bracing to it's fundamental size and shape, with an even thickness top; about 2 mm for this pattern. And after the top is installed I deal with the top; graduating its thickness where needed, and then I finish off the brace tuning after the guitar has been French polished, and has been played for awhile.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2014 14:04:38

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

This is a little addition to this thread as RE Brune just contacted me that he had a 1999 Blackshear-Barbero style flamenco for sale that has been to war but with a good price; very flamenco.

I spend two months fine tuning this puppy before I sold it to Brune, which he sold to a fellow who didn't take care of it.

http://www.rebrune.com/tomblackshear/

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2014 15:42:56

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I'm going to try and upload a fuller explanation of the fan braces and what brace effects certain strings, as the top is near its finish with the bracing. This upload will be later tonight, God willing.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2014 16:59:30

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Here is more extended information about the top construction. I will leave off for awhile until I get the guitar together and playing, or perhaps some additional thoughts, if I can remember them

Click on the link below to watch the 13 minute video........

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF9n836Stm_0XV2dMiaPupg

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2014 11:50:36

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

This is a little addition to this thread as RE Brune just contacted me that he had a 1999 Blackshear-Barbero style flamenco for sale that has been to war but with a good price; very flamenco.

I spend two months fine tuning this puppy before I sold it to Brune, which he sold to a fellow who didn't take care of it.

http://www.rebrune.com/tomblackshear/

Curious why you (if you did this) and other luthiers sometimes put the color finish OVER The rosette rather than mask it so the colors aren't ruined?

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2014 16:10:12

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Curious why you (if you did this) and other luthiers sometimes put the color finish OVER The rosette rather than mask it so the colors aren't ruined?

I put the finish on the rosette, as this is the way I've done it for 53 years. I don't mask it. The colors are not ruined, imho, but have a certain patina under the finish as most older traditional guitars have. I think that the newer style masking is a little over done, almost decal like. Just my opinion. I agree that this particular finish is a little darker than I usually finish with but I was trying for a little more aged look.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2014 17:52:01

Tom Blackshear

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RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

This video is showing the jigs I use for the bridge and the fingerboard:

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2014 17:11:21

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

I think that the newer style masking is a little over done, almost decal like. Just my opinion. I agree that this particular finish is a little darker than I usually finish with but I was trying for a little more aged look.

I knew it all along, rosettes by younger makers are decals! See Ricardo you were right all along.

I don't mask the rosette, I just put several layers of super blonde shellac on it and then French polish with a more colored shellac. Then you don't need to go over the rosette much and it stays brighter.

I like some rosettes that have a full color shellac on them, but they are mre difficult to touch up later. Of course color matching on guitar finishes is always tough.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2014 19:19:51

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

I knew it all along, rosettes by younger makers are decals!

Actually I sold some of my rosettes to a builder who was using such thin rosettes that he had to fill them with Crazy Glue to make them smooth rather than try and sand them.

But I think he liked my 1.5 to 2 mm saw cut rosettes a lot.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2014 15:55:15

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Happy Thanksgiving! Later today I will try and give a video overview of the guitar top, that is finished, before installing it to the sides and back.

After this I will be off the thread for awhile until I build the guitar and install the top.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2014 12:26:33

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Here is the last bit of information about the top until I build the rest of the guitar.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2014 21:24:55

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Interesting about the bracing.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2014 21:54:25

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to SephardRick)

One of the reasons I have to be off this list for awhile is that Manuel sent me two guitars to fine-tune in the Blackshear motif. The spruce top had a few problems but this morning the tuning worked very well and I've got a great guitar to sell.......but sorry

it's a classical.

Also, I have another guitar with a cedar top I will have to fine tune, but again, it's a classical.

And as soon as I get everything in order, with this and the 1968 building tutorial, I'll be back.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2014 17:25:13

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Not being a constructor, I am wondering exactly what feedback the top is giving as you sing to the struts?

Is it vibrating to your touch? Is the tone of your voice changes at a certain key? Or maybe you see a physical movement?

I am really curious what is going on here.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2014 19:01:50

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to SephardRick)

The top vibrates at a certain frequency or tone as I sing. It vibrates more with the key of G-F#-F right now. It should stay at this tuning when connected to the guitar, with only a slight potential for variance, which can be fine-tuned to its optimum tonal response if necessary.

I think a significant number of guitar makers are working with this ideal today, as there seems to be a renaissance of traditional methods from the older masters coming back into view.

And I can say this, if factories want to build higher quality instruments, then it is imperative that these older systems be considered as an option or additional approach for a quality build.. As it does not hurt to utilize something that can add to art.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 10 2014 18:37:53

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Once, in earlier forums and elsewhere I believe you mentioned tuning not just to musical keys, but to human vowel sounds.

If you were tuning to vowel sounds, would it be done prior to this point?

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2014 16:13:01

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to SephardRick)

Most of the dimensional vowel tone would be fine-tuned after the guitar has been played a few days.

I remember taking 12 years to finalize a voice in one of my Miguel Rodriguez style classical guitars. It is beautiful with the Church Door type Brazilian rosewood and cedar top.

It went for top dollar to a friend of mine in San Antonio.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2014 16:38:25

Sr. Martins

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Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I was wondering...

How do measure your achievement on this one? You set yourself to build a modification of something so..

It kinda sounds like a "protection" in case you don't succeed at building a replica of this guitar but maybe you have other plans or intentional corrections for this model... if that's the case, how do you measure your success at it? ...and if it is meant to be a 1968 Conde with intentional corrections, why not just say that it's "a guitar you've built"?

Unless Iam missing something that is "proprietary" to that specific guitar, then I don't understand this.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2014 17:29:27

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

It kinda sounds like a "protection" in case you don't succeed at building a replica of this guitar

The point of this tutorial is to modify the guitar using a fan brace adjustment to see if it can be improved, nothing else.

This attempt is to improve articulation and bring the playing technique up to a modern style of play.

I'll know this when the guitar is finished, not until then. I've built this model several times before but I will incorporate the new technique to see if it improves the guitar.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2014 17:48:50

Sr. Martins

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Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

I've built this model several times before

That answers it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2014 18:22:59

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

All previous builds of the Conde design, were sold,...... this is to experiment with a modification similar to the 2003 Reyes to see if there can be any improvement with fan brace shaping.

I've incorporated similar techniques to the Miguel Rodriguez style and found it improves the guitar to support the construction, without hurting the tone.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2014 13:25:15

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I'm just about ready to continue building the Conde style modification. I'm bending the sides now and there's hope that this tutorial will be a positive experience.

My shop is becoming organized to the point that everything is getting more comfortable with building. I still have some concern about the top tuning being higher than the original F on the 4th string, so I may try and lower the key a little before I glue the top to the sides.

The way I do this is to take a little more wood off the fan braces, ever so slightly, on the bass side and leave the treble side alone, so that the treble projection will be evident, as well as having a certain stiffness.

I may have to thin out the harmonic bars just a little, and after the guitar is together and playing for a few days, I'll graduate the top a little more to adjust the Key tuning before doing fine-tuning with the fan braces.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2014 14:15:04

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

This is to show a little progression with the guitar being built before the 2 part lining laminate and top goes on. I use the Miguel Rodriguez style laminate for the top to try and improve the projection.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2015 2:30:27