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eitanfar

 

Posts: 68
Joined: Oct. 16 2014
 

Switch to and from picado 

Hi,

I've recently started practicing picado the way Paco de Lucia does it (i.e. with the elbow raised, and the wrist almost straight).
This works really well, and have given me much more speed than I had previously.
My problem is that I find it difficult to switch between the regular hand position and the picado hand position. It's time consuming, and it's not always easy to hit the right string after the transition.

Any advice ?

Thanks,
Eitan
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2014 8:25:01
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar

Patience?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2014 8:49:11
 
bernd

 

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004
 

RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar

Getting speed in picado is very often the ability to play with more speed in descending scales. So lifting the elbow is much more comfortable than stroking into the hand. "lifting the elbow" is a combination of elbow lifting and a reduced angle of the forearm. In my lessons I saw many students using their standard hand position for being able to play any technique. In descending picado runs they keep their hand position by only adapting the angle of the forearm, no elbow lifting. So there is no switching of positions. Maybe this helps you.

Becoming fast on picado is more a technically aspect than related to special positions like elbow lifting. This is very individual. Each single person has a different body providing different oppertunities. What works good for Jim doesn´t need to work good for John. The goal is to find a balance allowing you to fulfill all required skills in a stream. If something is out of balance, then I would replace it for something that´s working better.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2014 9:10:12
 
machopicasso

 

Posts: 899
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar

quote:

My problem is that I find it difficult to switch between the regular hand position and the picado hand position. It's time consuming, and it's not always easy to hit the right string after the transition.

Any advice ?


Practice. Seriously. And, once you manage to get the hang of it, you'll try to learn some pro's falseta where he does the same thing but in a more challenging way. And then, if you want to master that falseta, you'll have to learn to do it even better than before.

There's this one falseta from Antonio Rey on which I've been working for the longest time. He moves from arpeggio to picado on two strings and then to a descending picado run. Learning to adjust my hand position accordingly took some getting used to. But it comes with practice. So, practice!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2014 9:46:45
 
eitanfar

 

Posts: 68
Joined: Oct. 16 2014
 

RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar

Thanks everyone,

Sr. Martins: Thanks, that's always good advice

bernd: I tried not lifting my elbow, but when I do lift the elbow, thus reducing my forearm angle, my speed is much higher, and it feels more natural and healthy

machopicasso: Thanks, I want to practice it, but don't really have good exercises. Could you post a link to some note sheet or tabs of that falseta ? (even a youtube video should help)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2014 10:27:03
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13290
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar

Practice Impetu by escudero, very slow and with metronome. Isolate the falsetas that have this transition, there are MANY in that piece. Make a loop of those spots and build tempo gradually. It will come with time. It end up being a little dance choreography that your hand learns. And like a dancer you should practice in the mirror.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2014 21:09:43
 
eitanfar

 

Posts: 68
Joined: Oct. 16 2014
 

RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar

Thanks a lot, I'll give that a try.

My problem is that my background is in classical music, and I've been playing the classical rest stroke for so many years, it's now very difficult to switch to the Paco de Lucia style picado. I'm giving it my best shot though.

Thanks,
Eitan
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2014 5:48:32
 
hamia

 

Posts: 382
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar

quote:

ORIGINAL: eitanfar

Thanks a lot, I'll give that a try.

My problem is that my background is in classical music, and I've been playing the classical rest stroke for so many years, it's now very difficult to switch to the Paco de Lucia style picado. I'm giving it my best shot though.

Thanks,
Eitan


Why bother changing. Picardo is any rest stroke however you want to do it - it's not essential to follow PdL and I would argue not worth the effort if you have a good classical rest stroke.

I started learning the PdL method over 10 years ago when I read about it in Graf-Martinez's book. This method confuses the hell out of most people who believe that the middle knuckle doesn't make much contribution to the power of the stroke. The confusion is understandable because it simply takes years and years of practice (if you practice this method an hour a day for 6 months you will have barely made a dent in your progress). A good alternative is to play with bent knuckles and a compact hand with the power coming from the large knuckle. But this isn't what PdL is doing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2014 7:50:46
 
machopicasso

 

Posts: 899
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar

quote:

Thanks, I want to practice it, but don't really have good exercises. Could you post a link to some note sheet or tabs of that falseta ? (even a youtube video should help)


Well, Ricardo recommended learning "Impetu", so I'd follow his advice.

But, if you're curious, the falseta I had in mind runs from 1:17 to 1:30 in this clip:

A nice tab of the piece is available for purchase from one of our fellow foro members here: http://tabsflamenco.com/?page_id=11
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2014 9:27:38
 
eitanfar

 

Posts: 68
Joined: Oct. 16 2014
 

RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to hamia

quote:

Why bother changing. Picardo is any rest stroke however you want to do it - it's not essential to follow PdL and I would argue not worth the effort if you have a good classical rest stroke.


I have several reasons to want to switch:

1. When switching to Flamenco, I changed my posture completely to accommodate the different style of playing. Since then, it's no longer very comfortable for me to do a classical rest stroke, especially on the bass strings

2. My classical technique was good, but I didn't have very high speed (I never really needed that in the past). I understand that using PdL's technique one has the potential of gaining a lot of speed with proper practice

3. My classical technique was focused on the roundness and fullness of the sound, which is quite the opposite to the flamenco sound I would like to achieve

I've already gained reasonable confidence with the PdL technique, my problem is that when there are quick transitions to/from arpeggios, I'm still not very confident.
I guess practicing the falsetas people here suggested a lot would do the trick.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2014 13:05:44
 
hamia

 

Posts: 382
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar

quote:

ORIGINAL: eitanfar

I've already gained reasonable confidence with the PdL technique, my problem is that when there are quick transitions to/from arpeggios, I'm still not very confident.
I guess practicing the falsetas people here suggested a lot would do the trick.


Yes, practicing a lot is the key. I play an Aria silent guitar a lot while watching TV etc. And also have a small practice tool (about 5 frets worth) which can be used to practice right hand picado/arpeggio transitions. Do this on a car journey or flight and you can rack up a lot of practice time. Quite a few people say these things are worthless - strangely enough they are often ones with pretty poor technique ...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2014 13:30:05
 
rombsix

Posts: 7607
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar



Be careful about your right shoulder & neck when doing the PdL picado position. Good luck!

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2014 14:02:28
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13290
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar

Just a couple of points.

1. Becareful with that whole middle joint power thing. It is deceiving when looking at front angle video shots of PDL and others. There is plenty of footage that shows PDL powering his strokes from the big joint viewed from different angles. His speed comes from rhythm control and staccato practice. Those are the keys. Banderas, Rey, Cepero, and many others that match PDL speed don't bend m finger knuckle as severely but achieve the same results of speed and tone, because they are essentially doing the same technique.

2. be aware of your position not only of arm and hand vertically, but also horizontally between sound hole and bridge. Shorter scale length guitars require you to be more precise at finding the "sweet spot" in this regard to optimize your tone and speed for picados. Normally PDL and others move closer to the bridge when moving from trebles to basses, but it is very subtle. The string tension can affect your accuracy. Stacato helps (right hand stopping not left hand stopping) because it helps you get a secure grip before each stroke, increasing your accuracy and tone and allowing more stamina and speed. Many players try to muscle their way through fast passages and run out of gas.

3. Antonio Rey is playing beautifully there, wow.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2014 16:18:03
 
Issam

 

Posts: 50
Joined: Sep. 3 2010
 

RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to machopicasso

Here is another clip, with a better view, of Antonio playing that falseta:

0:49

.

Just in case anyone would like to learn it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2014 21:28:43
 
JdeMaria

 

Posts: 21
Joined: Jun. 26 2014
 

RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to rombsix

quote:

Be careful about your right shoulder & neck when doing the PdL picado position. Good luck!


This is definitely a shoulder killer if you focus on practicing this technique for hrs.
If you have any shoulder issues you will find yourself resting and eventually digging your forearm on the edge of the guitar and that can also lead to tendon issues/fatigue if you are overdoing it.
One should find it's own balance of what works for you and what others' technique is.

I read somewhere that it was Paco's father who helped him perfect his picado and apparently the lifting of the arm was his Dad's suggestion. How cool!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2014 0:22:58
 
Cervantes

 

Posts: 491
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar

I also have noticed PDL and also Moraito used straight fingers for picado while Tomatito's fingers are much more bent. I haven't decided for myself which technique I like ebst since I have not been playing that long. One exercise my teacher gave me is to play and arpeggio followed by rasgueados and then followed by picado and play it continuously over and over. Its really boring but I think helpful.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 28 2014 16:34:13
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to Cervantes

PDL playing picado with straight fingers? That must be almost an 90º angle... he must be the less straight I've ever seen.


OTOH, this is the straightest I have seen.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 28 2014 16:45:03
 
eitanfar

 

Posts: 68
Joined: Oct. 16 2014
 

RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to Cervantes

Would it be possible for you to post the tabs/notes of that exercise (with your teacher's permission of course) ?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2014 5:40:29
 
Issam

 

Posts: 50
Joined: Sep. 3 2010
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 29 2014 16:54:22
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2014 16:53:45
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