Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
Flamenco and Classical guitar duet
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
|
 RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (in reply to ToddK)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ToddK
The "jazzy" flamenco of one moment, is the "Traditional" flamenco of the next moment. Think of what they said about Paco when he was doing the same crazy stuff in the 70's.
Not criticizing you are trying to give you a hard time, just trying to hip you to
great stuff that you would really love if you gave it a chance, thats all.
I enjoyed the duets posted here.
My impression of the "modern" flamenco stuff with chord extensions is that harmonically it's about 60 years past its "sell by" date.
Here's why. When I was about 12 LP records of classical music came out. Under the tutelage of an adult mentor I built a little hi-fi rig and started buying classical LPs.
Beethoven was my first love. I bought the miniature scores to the symphonies and picked out some of the chords on the piano. Some of his harmony seemed pretty radical. Then I moved on to Brahms and Tchaikovsky, then Richard Strauss and Debussy. It was a revelation when I discovered Stravinsky. Now there was some original stuff.
As a kid trumpeter, around age 13 or 14 I started getting interested in jazz. I copped solos off early jazz and swing records, then I got to know some older kids who were into "modern" jazz. Beside Miles, Diz, Bird and Monk we listened to Bartok and Hindemith. They showed me the stuff about extended chords and chord substitution.
When I was 16 I started a band. I wrote some arrangements for it. With nine pieces I didn't have the firepower of Kenton or Ellington, but I could experiment with "modern" harmony to the extent that the people we played for would stand for it.
As I said, "modern" flamenco sounds to me about 60 years out of date harmonically. It has been explained to me that Paco and others were influenced more by bossa nova than by jazz, but the Brazilians' harmonic vocabulary was strongly influenced by 1950s jazz.
To stay alive an art form has to evolve. The music of what we call "traditional" flamenco (Ramon Montoya, Niño Ricardo and Sabicas were considered radical and "modern" in their day) was supremely guitaristic. It was harmonically and rhythmically distinct from any other genre. The harmonic language of much of "modern" flamenco is less distinct, and to my ear less guitaristic.
For departure from 19th century harmony, Manuel de Falla, Frank Martin and Angelo Gilardino for example, sound more guitaristic to me than much of "modern" flamenco.
I'm not saying it's not as good as the older stuff. I really enjoyed Tomatito when he played Austin a few months ago with his group. To my ear it was certainly guitaristic. It was definitely flamenco as well--whatever that may mean. But I still enjoy the older stuff too.
I'd rather listen to cante than many modern flamenco guitar solos. The esthetic of the cante and the solo guitar have diverged even further than they had in the 1950s when middle aged Spanish aficionados sometimes grumbled about Sabicas.
But Melchor de Marchena, one of the greatest cante accompanists of all time, was certainly proud of his son Enrique, a decidedly modern soloist, sadly no longer with us.
RNJ
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Sep. 6 2014 5:15:30
 |
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
|
|
|
quote:
As I said, "modern" flamenco sounds to me about 60 years out of date harmonically. It has been explained to me that Paco and others were influenced more by bossa nova than by jazz, but the Brazilians' harmonic vocabulary was strongly influenced by 1950s jazz.
Without getting into the old argument again, I still feel when people write off modern flamenco playing as "jazzy", it has more to do with the execution and rhythm than with any harmonic things (chords) going on in the music. And that specific modern way to express compas or melody has very little to do with "jazz" at all. A lot of the same chords done today we can find in Montoya's music, yet it doesn't sound the same because of how it's executed. Extensions to chords only go to 13 after all, key changes are bound to the circle of 5ths, etc. Picasso, for example didn't discover "new colors" when he started getting more abstract with his artwork vs his "blue" period. But if someone today wanted to do a series of blue paintings, some critic will talk about how old school it is to do that again, perhaps missing the point of the new art. I tend to see a similar "wrong" focus on the modern flamenco stuff from critics.
quote:
Regarding above piece, to me there are too many notes, too many optional ones and too little of overall definition.
Wow, didn't realize that before, thanks for pointing that out to us there Salieri... 
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Sep. 6 2014 12:25:07
|
|
Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
|
|
RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
I agree with Ruphus's point that the reaction to musical styles may be largely subjective. What I was saying is that my subjective reaction to much of "modern" flamenco guitar soloing reminds me of 1950s jazz. Nothing wrong with that. As I tried to point out, much of my reaction has to do with my personal history. But much of it doesn't excite me as much as the novelty of 1950s jazz did.
And I agree with Ricardo that much of the difference in effect between "modern" and "traditional" guitar soloing is in the execution. It is a major component of the divergence between the esthetic of cante and guitar solo.
I like a fairly wide range of stuff: flamenco cante, guitar and dance, classical guitar, classical music in general, jazz, blues, rock 'n roll, Indian classical music, both the northern and southern traditions. I spent the month of July in Bali steeped in Balinese gamelan and dance, and the music of the wayang kulit shadow play. I love it all.
The various Euro-American musics have influenced one another significantly throughout their shared histories. It seems to me flamenco guitar has been more influenced by other musics than the cante has, to my ear losing a little of its distinctiveness.
But I repeat, I really dug Tomatito when he played Austin. He has moved on past his early influences and he really cooks, rhythmically and harmonically. His stuff had a blazing intensity you seldom hear in any genre.
But that's just my subjective reaction.
RNJ
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Sep. 6 2014 19:11:59
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (in reply to ToddK)
|
|
|
quote:
Its like somebody saying they like flamenco guitar, but don't like the horrible whaling of the singer. It's not really "Horrible whaling", they just have'nt acquired the taste, so they write it off as if it were the same as a dying cow.
I agree with you up to a point. To use your example above, I did not care for cante at first. I remember long ago referring to it as sounding like a dying cat in a hail storm. But the more I listened to it the more it grew on me. I love cante now, just as I still love solo flamenco guitar (I know, that dates me for sure!). For me, cante definitely was an acquired taste, one that I thoroughly enjoy.
Nevertheless, that does not translate into assuming that one does not like something simply because one has not given it a chance. One can listen to something, perhaps some new innovation, with an open mind, and in the end still not like it. As an example, I went to see Paco de Lucia when he last performed in the Washington area two or three years ago. His group included a harmonica and a bass guitar. I found it musically interesting, and I particularly liked the harmonica, but I did not like it as "flamenco." I know it was "modern" flamenco and am not quibbling over the point. It's just that I did not like it as flamenco, not because I did not give it a chance, but because the diffuse instruments in his band diluted the effect my taste in flamenco (which tends toward Sabicas and, today, Paco Pena) has on me.
One can consider my taste in flamenco "traditional," "old fashioned," "narrow-minded," or any number of other adjectives, but there it is. Taste is an individual thing, and, for better or worse, that one does not care for some innovation within a genre does not necessarily indicate that one has written it off without giving it a chance. It might mean one just doesn't care for it.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Sep. 6 2014 19:39:13
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
quote:
Bill uses derogatory adjectives (in quotes) to describe his own taste, when in fact that has not happened anywhere on this foro that i have ever noticed....it's just those un needed extra adjectives that jab us in the ribs from time to time makes some of us to at least ATTEMPT at opening doors to new avenues of enjoyment listening wise.
Just to clarify, Ricardo, my use of the adjectives "traditional," "old fashioned," and "narrow-minded" in describing how one might view my taste in flamenco was my own, self-deprecating take on it. I in no way meant to imply that anyone on the Foro has ever described me in those terms. And I certainly did not mean to jab you or Todd in the ribs with my comment. I simply meant to use my own approach to enjoying flamenco as an example of one's taste not necessarily depending on not having given some new innovation in the genre a chance.
In the example of Paco de Lucia's last visit to the Washington area, I found the combination of non-traditional instruments (harmonica, base guitar) musically interesting but did not care for it as flamenco. (I have listened to other, similar performances using non-traditional instruments as well. I don't base my opinion solely on Paco's performance.) The only way I can describe it is, for me they diluted the "flamenco-ness" of the performance. Paco, of course, was still the virtuoso, but I could have done without the others as far as flamenco was concerned.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Sep. 7 2014 16:34:45
|
|
Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
|
|
RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
As music listeners, we all bring varying things to the table. It's hard for many of us to enjoy modern flamenco as much as the old stuff we first grew to love. Some people find the old stuff corny and don't get into it unless the syncopations are syncopated. Some people want the substitutions to have substitutions and some people "don't listen to music that doesn't have words." To an extent, it is a matter of knowledge and experience, but sometimes tastes remain unchanged despite repeated exposure.
Unfortunately, Paco's last concert left me cold and I enjoyed the dancer and the harmonica player more than most of the guitar. There are those of us, sophisticated people, that find even fine classical music, written by geniuses working at a higher level than any today, boring because it doesn't have a beat.
On the other hand, tastes can change. I now... sort of... like fretless bass. Once Todd went after me because I said it just sounded like a bunch of farting :)
_____________________________
Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ
Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Sep. 7 2014 17:16:44
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.09375 secs.
|
Printable Version
