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Bulerias Compas - keeping track   You are logged in as Guest
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JasonM

Posts: 1804
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

Bulerias Compas - keeping track 

I'm ashamed to admit that after all these years of playing or listening to flamenco, I suck at compas. Always have. I don't practice rhythm enough either because it just stresses me out really quick. Always liked to tap my foot every other beat when playing but ii can loose track of which half of the cycle I'm in taping like a metronome. I'm talking Bulerias here because nothing else matters ;)

Anyway, don't get me wrong, I'm no noob. I'm talking about when rhythm gets complex, and I want to keep track of where things are in the compas, yet feel what's going on rhythmically. I get in trouble with Amigo, or Paco falsetas for example. Really getting a good grip on things. I can listen and feel the compas, but I can't always do that and get locked in on syncopation in falsetas at the same time.

You could say well, go back to basics, play for dance class, practice metronome, etc. We'll I have. It's almost like a threshold I'm trying to cross. It's hard to convey typing on an ipad, and frankly a pain in the arse,it's 2:30 am and I don't know what I'm asking really...

Ok, take this video...

http://youtu.be/yfChcoSoa1E

Basic palmas. Talks about rise and fall with a 6 count. Accents on 2 and 4. Beats 5 and 6 are kind of a break and add swing. Ok, simple. I hear it all the time. Especially when tempo is too fast to count. But where does the 4 fall in the 12 cycle? Is it 12, 3, 10. Feels like it's 3 but it doesn't work out either to me. Or is it just a way to feel compas and not transpose to 12,3, and 10 accents?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 18 2014 6:46:57
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bulerias Compas - keeping track (in reply to JasonM

quote:

But where does the 4 fall in the 12 cycle? Is it 12, 3, 10.


3 and 9. But you said yourself you getting lost, so lose the counting concept and use a metronome

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 18 2014 7:13:56
 
orsonw

Posts: 1521
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Bulerias Compas - keeping track (in reply to JasonM

His "one" or foot tap is what is more commonly described as "12" and "6". So everything in his count is moved along one from the common description. After all counting is simply a way of describing rhythm after the fact. Here are a couple of other ways of describing bulerias.



  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 18 2014 9:22:49
 
JasonM

Posts: 1804
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bulerias Compas - keeping track (in reply to JasonM

Sorry, there may have been some slight inebriation involved with that post. Yet somehow complete sentences were formed. I know im not the first

I was a little too hard on thyslelf there. I have improved a lot thinking back. I was frustrated trying to learn some falsetas by Amigo. I listen and do palmas and it fits in.
Then I find the downbeat and focus on keeping that. But then I think well where exactly does this beat fall in the cycle... and maybe it does or doesn't matter. I don't mean that I have no idea where I am in compas necessarily like I'm way off.. I think the answer is a metronome as you said.



quote:

3 and 9. But you said yourself you getting lost, so lose the counting concept and use a metronome


You say it often, I just needed to hear it again.

3 and 9. I knew things here were shifted but I was missing the big picture obviously. I was thinking the 9 should be 10, but I get it now. Duh.

You've taught me all this before I know. I swear it wasn't in vain. Takes a while to sink in ;). I will throw that metronome at the wall though. I mean, I'd like to.



quote:

After all counting is simply a way of describing rhythm after the fact. After all counting is simply a way of describing rhythm after the fact.


You know, I think the video from Jason is what I needed to hear long ago. Maybe Ive been thinking that ultimately things need to be transposed back to a twelve count still. making things complicated. An old habit.

Thanks guys, problem solved
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 18 2014 18:36:10
 
tele

Posts: 1462
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Bulerias Compas - keeping track (in reply to JasonM

I couldn't catch bulerias compas until I started to think in terms of three(basically six but with other three beats falling in between), so 12-2-4
or 6-8-10 makes for straight foot tapping (if you need assistance) where every third would be finishing beat. When playing normal 12 beat compas it's not difficult to still follow this foot tapping when the 4 falls just after the important 3. I probably didn't explain it too well and I also learned it from ricardo and erik van goch on this foro(THANKS!). Basically my point is to remove any unnecessary thinking by thinking in fewer beats.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 18 2014 20:05:12
 
JasonM

Posts: 1804
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bulerias Compas - keeping track (in reply to tele

quote:

I couldn't catch bulerias compas until I started to think in terms of three(basically six but with other three beats falling in between), so 12-2-4


Actually I started to do it this way too but it's hard to break old habit.

Or I try to tap in 6 like what McGuire was saying in the above video, sort of like tapping palmas. I like how he mentioned it as a sort of secret or something. Because I never learned palmas, but I was hearing it all the time and thought it was simple and a good way to feel the ryhthm. I downloaded his dr. Compas a while ago and was like oh, there it is..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 18 2014 22:08:18

ToddK

 

Posts: 2960
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: Bulerias Compas - keeping track (in reply to JasonM

Get the numbers out of your head.

That is what's messing you up. Stop trying to count.

Stop being afraid to mess up, because that is the only way
to learn.
Like Ricardo said, use a metronome.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 19 2014 5:30:15
 
athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: Bulerias Compas - keeping track (in reply to JasonM

bulerías compás is pretty easy if you are able to groove on a normal 6/8.
The hard thing is what the flamencos do with that rhyhtm, so don't learn super-synchopated falsetas from vicente, paco or gerardo. just try to groove with lets say three chords and you are done.
and listen to cante the whole day!!! jerez is probably the best school for bulerías..
el torta, los zambos, la paquera etc...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 19 2014 10:31:55
 
dartemo1

Posts: 72
Joined: Apr. 21 2010
 

RE: Bulerias Compas - keeping track (in reply to athrane77

Hi, I want to revive this interesting thread. I have a question regarding switching from “12” bulerias compass 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 (11) to “threes” or “twos”. When playing in threes it looks like José is accenting 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 etc. Also Ricardo explained that the pattern goes as 1 2 3(golpe) 4 5 6(golpe) 7 8 9(golpe) etc. It sounds right and automatically takes care of things like 1,2,3 llamadas and desplantes. One the other hand, I found that dancers often hear the compass as 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11. Also closing is a bit easier with keeping A chord on 12-1-2 and switching to B flat on 3-pause. Similarly, playing in twos can be done as 12 1 2 3 4 5 etc. or 12 1 2 3 4 5 etc. I am a bit confused. Thank you.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 26 2017 19:13:15
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Bulerias Compas - keeping track (in reply to JasonM

In the old days it was not uncommon for falseta to start on beat 1. The few times i encountered one i really had to focus because i'm used to lines that start on (or head for) beat 12.

I tend to feel the compas starting on 12 and the basic accents then are

12--3--/6-8-10-

If you see it as 2 halves of 6 beats the first half feels like a *--*-- pulse" and the second half feels like a *-*-*- pulse.

Although we all learn that bulerias has natural accents on 12-3-6-8-10 in reality melodies can follow different accents over a longer period of time as well. Some follow a *--*-- pulse for a while (which translates to bulerias as 12--3--/6--9--)
while other melodies follow a *-*-*- pulse for a while (which translates to bulerias as 12-2-4-/6-8-10-).

But like ToddK said, on a certain moment you have to get the numbers out of your head. Over time i stopped counting too, in stead i just feel above (6 beat) patterns/chains whiteout necessarily knowing/naming the numbers they might or might not have.

So i feel chains of 6 beats ("*--*--" versus "*-*-*-") and just combine them in such a way they follow the pulse of the melody.

common chain combinations are

*--*--/*--*--//*--*--/*-*-*-//.

and

*-*-*-/*-*-*-//*-*-*-/*-*-*//-.

Note that after each pair of chains i placed a double // to emphasize that in many cases on top of feeling chains of 6 beats i still keep feeling the full compas on the background. But that very much depends on the musical developments and when the pulse expand many compasses (or embed a so called half compas at one place or the other were a single chain of 6 beats is placed in between chains that feel like paired chains) it might become pretty unclear/unimportant if a chain is the fist or the second half of the compas. I might end up adding chain to chain, half compas to half compas, brick to brick until the theme either picks up a "full compas feeling" again or rounds up. In reality you must be able to switch between *--*-- and *-*-*- pulses without thinking and whiteout getting lost (which is not the same as being able to name every beat, i'm talking about not loosing the total picture... to me the first * of each chain feels like a mental marking point which keeps me tracked most of the time).

Now the real trick is to know how to round things up (even when it is unclear if you are on the first or the second half of the compas). That's a mater of experience. You just have to recognize the moment(s) the "roundup" is likely/supposed to occur and act accordingly.

In general the melody either ends on beat 6 (in which case you play a suitable (rasgueado) bridge to beat 10 followed by golpe on 11 and start new developments from there (like a compas variation starting with an upstroke at 12) or the melody stops at beat 10 followed by golpe on beat 11 etc.

Now the thing is to know how to embed that final roundup (or ad another falseta) when you are in above chain flows. It is important to know that the first * of each chain (either *--*-- or *-*-*-) is either 12 or 6. So if the melody ends on the fist * of the chain you call it 6 and round up the compas from there. This generally happens when you are in a *--*--/*--*--/* pulse so in general an extended *--*-- pulse ends with a final 6>10>12 pulse. *--*--/*--*--/*--*--/6>8>10).

When you already are in a *-*-*-/*-*-*- pulse the melody can either end on 6 (again the first * of the chain) after which you add the final 6>8>10 chain like above, or the melody ends on on beat 10 which happens to be the 3-th * of the chain (that 3-th * is either 4 or 10 and when it's the the final chain you simply call it 10). *-*-*-/*-*-*-/*-*-*-/*-*-10.

so in short i feel chains like

*--*--

were the fist * is either 12 (starting point of many falsetas) or 6 (quite often the moment were you round up the pulse with a final 6-8-10 pulse). *--*--/*--*--/*--*--/6>8>10).

and *-*-*-

were the first * is either 12 (starting point of many falsetas) or 6. Rounding up either occurs at 1-th * (with a final 6>8>10 pulse) *-*-*-/*-*-*-/*-*-*-/6>8>10. or at the 3-th * which is named 10 then. *-*-*-/*-*-*-/*-*-*-/*-*-10.

With this simple setup one can already follow quite a lot but obviously it's just a first guideline. Much also depends on your background and Moraito might very well play a melodic *--*-- pulse while his foot is tapping *-*-*- :-).

The foro is full of this kind of posts, trick is how/where to find them.

_____________________________

The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 26 2017 23:09:53
 
dartemo1

Posts: 72
Joined: Apr. 21 2010
 

RE: Bulerias Compas - keeping track (in reply to Erik van Goch

Thank you Erik. Your insights are much appreciated.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 27 2017 0:33:14
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3342
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Bulerias Compas - keeping track (in reply to dartemo1

quote:

When playing in threes it looks like José is accenting 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 etc.


when he counts "un dos tres un dos tres" at 3:20 and again when he counts and starts to play tapeado (muted strings) at 3:40 he is giving the compas a simpler count. His "1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3" is actually "12, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10"

Then when he starts to play on a chord just after (3:45-ish) he is accenting 12, 3, 6, 9. Then he puts in some closures of the compas. These accent 10 (like in the "classic" 12, 3, 6, 8, 10 accents). But note, the rasgueado ends on 10, but starts on 9, so that sort of links up the two sets of accents (in my head anyway, and I don't really think of it in numbers or count while I play, and find it is actually much simpler without all the counting analysis which just seems to make it sound really complex).

At around 5:50 He counts again the "normal" 12,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11, and then goes into rhythmic vocalisation of the rhythm. Go with that, it's actually much more useful than counting.

The last lessons I had in Spain the teacher taught all the Bulerias we did without counting anything, just with the foot on "1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3" (which as explained above corresponds to "12, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10"). It was much easier than having someone count all the time, which I find really offputting, 'cos then you can't actually hear the falseta you're supposed to be learning!

With this video, following Ricardo's advice:
quote:

lose the counting concept and use a metronome
and Todd's advice:
quote:

Get the numbers out of your head. That is what's messing you up. Stop trying to count.
is easy, or at least possible.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 27 2017 13:58:33
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 27 2017 14:42:43
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 27 2017 14:37:03
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Bulerias Compas - keeping track (in reply to JasonM

Didn't see above reaction of Mark, so i unintendedly second him

quote:

ORIGINAL: dartemo1
I have a question regarding switching from “12” bulerias compass 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 (11) to “threes” or “twos”. When playing in threes it looks like José is accenting 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 etc. .....

One the other hand, I found that dancers often hear the compass as 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11.


Like Mark mentioned above Josés 123/123 does indeed equal the pulse 12-2-4/6-8-10-. So it basically counts the even beats of bulerias and rather then calling them 12-2-4-/6-8-10 he gives them the neutral names 1-2-3- just to emphasize he feels a chain/pulse of 3 "beats". His 123/123 equals my *-*-*-/*-*-*- he simply calls my neutral dots 1,2 and 3.

The other pulse you mention 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11. is quite the opposite of that 123 (12-2-4-) pulse and is the other side of the coin of counting in "threes' or and "twos". That pulse equals my *--*--/*--*--. Like stated earlier the first dot is either 12 or 6 so as far as i'm concerned your alternative 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 etc. probably has to be considered a mis understanding.

As far as switching from "12" bulerias compas into "trees" and "two's" is concerned, i explained that previously. In short the basic compas exist out two halves

12--3--/6-8-10-

so the first half of the compas has the pulse *--*-- and the other half has the pulse *-*-*- (Jose's 123) and as such represent the 2 sides of the coin (6 beats felt as 2 groups of 3 and 6 beats felt as 3 groups of 2).

In reality both halves can be combined randomly to your likings so a melody can follow the "three" pulse over a longer period of time, it can follow the "two" pulse over a longer period of time and you can vary them to your likings. Quite often melody lines are constructed in such a way that 2 of these chains pair to become a full compas again. But it is perfectly possible to put in a so called half compas, a chain of 6 beats without a matching second half. The trick is to feel comfortable in changing from *--*-- into *-*-*- without thinking and just feel the pulse as a pulse without lossing yourself in counting. The most important part is knowing how to round things up which is explained in my previous post.


quote:

Similarly, playing in twos can be done as 12 1 2 3 4 5 etc. or 12 1 2 3 4 5 etc. I am a bit confused. Thank you.


i'm not so sure about the second option (1-3-5-) i think you miss understood that from above video.

I annotated the 12-2-4-(6-8-10-) pulse as "*-*-*-", he calls it 1-2-3-. I like to add that when i listen to bulerias or analyze it for myself or a student i tend to give every * it's own place on a horizontal line. So rather then calling it 1-2-3- (which can be a bit confusing considering the fact one could accidentally link that 1 to 1 in bulerias were actually it represents either beat 12 or 6) i tend to feel that "123 pulse" as left, middel, right, were my counting finger or mind (imaginary) jumps on a horizontal line from left>middle>right/left>middle /right. The *--*-- pulse i count in a similar way switching between left and right. By doing so i always know were i am and especially when the material i listen to is extremely complex that left/middle/right strategy (similar to his 123) is extremely helpful in being sure i'm still "in compas". Sometimes i have no clue what they are doing, all i know for sure is if they end correctly....or not :-).

_____________________________

The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 27 2017 15:36:35
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bulerias Compas - keeping track (in reply to dartemo1

quote:

ORIGINAL: dartemo1

Hi, I want to revive this interesting thread. I have a question regarding switching from “12” bulerias compass 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 (11) to “threes” or “twos”. When playing in threes it looks like José is accenting 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 etc. Also Ricardo explained that the pattern goes as 1 2 3(golpe) 4 5 6(golpe) 7 8 9(golpe) etc. It sounds right and automatically takes care of things like 1,2,3 llamadas and desplantes. One the other hand, I found that dancers often hear the compass as 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11. Also closing is a bit easier with keeping A chord on 12-1-2 and switching to B flat on 3-pause. Similarly, playing in twos can be done as 12 1 2 3 4 5 etc. or 12 1 2 3 4 5 etc. I am a bit confused. Thank you.



First of all, don't think of it as "switching rhythm" as if the feeling has changed. Fundamentally you need to keep the same feeling throughout...as this "switching gears" might affect your tempo and groove unintentionally. The thing about the feel of 2s and 3s is that the magic number is 6, there is a symmetry that ties it all together fundamentally.

Here is the simple way to keep it all going. 12,2,4/6,8,10 are the basic beat that you can tap your foot on or feel inside. That means the odd counts are the up beat, but you have to feel something special about the 3 and the 9. It's an up beat accent feeling but you also change chords on those beats. Putting a rasgueado on those accents makes it more clear that there is symmetry. I call the 3 and the 9 the "tail" of the phrase and therefore 12 and 6 are the "head" of the phrases, or downbeat feelings. Once you get the feeling for head or tail, you no longer need to count or think of numbers.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 27 2017 17:28:52
 
dartemo1

Posts: 72
Joined: Apr. 21 2010
 

RE: Bulerias Compas - keeping track (in reply to JasonM

Thank you Ricardo, Mark, and Erik. Appreciate your help. I guess I will stop counting and instead try to get the feel of 1-2-3 (or 12-2-4). Just to make my point more clear I uploaded few files to audio section:
1. 12-bit compas followed by a simple llamada starting at 1
2. another 12-bit
3. accenting 1-2-3 (like in palmas) do not need a special llamada
4. accenting 12-1-2 to a llamada starting at 1
We "always" use llamadas, which start at "1", as signals for change/falcetas/etc to simplify transitions mentioned by Eric.
Thanks.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 28 2017 1:25:12
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