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Let's have a conversation about Women participants and and the Foro
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3457
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to estebanana)
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Good point for conversation, Stephen. In my several years as a member of the Foro, I have encountered four women. One was Kate, living in Granada with her husband (I believe his name is Harold). Kate used to post on the Foro frequently. If I remember correctly, she had a degree from a British university in Spanish history and language. I recall several topics in which I found her interesting and well-read. I miss Kate's contributions because I found her among the most interesting contributors to the Foro. Another was Ailsa. I didn't know her well, but I believe she played guitar, and she seemed to take a real interest in flamenco. Haven't seen her posts for about three years. Of course, Estela is among the most knowledgeable of contributors, and her posts are always interesting. She still posts from time to time. And what I most like about Estela is that she only posts when she has something important or significant to say. She does not blather. And her ideas are always dead-on straight. Really a joy to read Estela's posts. The only problem (if you can call it that) I have ever encountered was with someone who began posting about two years ago, but only for a short while and then she stopped. My run-in with her was when she posted something criticizing U.S. immigration policy. Now, I have had quite a bit of experience with U.S. immigration policy, having had a career with the U.S. State Department and having had experience overseas with adjudicating visas at U.S. Embassies (as well as having some knowledge of overall U.S. immigration policy). I challenged her critique of U.S. immigration policy, noting that the U.S. was among the most generous of all countries in its numbers and variety of intake of legal immigration. The U.S. takes in about one million legal immigrants a year, exceeding all other countries' intake combined. Unfortunately, the woman in question took great umbrage at my critique. I did not criticize her personally, but I did suggest that the U.S. was not as bad as she made it out to be. She lambasted me for that and wrote that she was not on the Foro to get into arguments (after having made the argument about how bad U.S. immigration policy was!) At any rate, she seemed to think she could take a stand on an issue but it was bad form to challenge her stand. Overall, I wish more women would contribute to the Foro. I think they have something to say regarding flamenco, as well as on other topics. Aside from my experience with the one woman on the Foro who could not take what she dished out, I have found women to be great company, on the Foro and elsewhere. As a side note, I have read others' comments about how women have been disrespected on the Foro. I have not seen this, but maybe it occurred before my time. Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 5 2014 1:37:25
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to estebanana)
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It is tempting to think the locker room humor is the reason women do not come here. Some of our posters are really quite crude and foul, and it's hard to imagine that anyone besides their tiny circle find them amusing (no, I'm not talking about you, Lenador, my man--you always seem to think I'm singling you out :). That being said, the classical guitar forums in which I participate have just about the same number of women, yet there is far less shock-mongering. I have a feeling if you go to rock guitar forums, or bluegrass guitar forums, or, for that matter, racecar-driving or cabinet-making or crab fishing forums, you will also find few women. There just aren't that many female flamenco guitar players--or, I imagine, crab fisher...women. I just don't see how new rules are going to encourage women to come here. Report posts that violate the old rules and let Simon take care of it. Of course, I do miss Kate--she's one of the few forum members I have met. Just possibly, it's not the language that drove her off but a lack of interest in what a hoard of intermediate-level guitar players talk about... just guessing. As to whether it would be worth it to change the culture: Yes! And that's something that anyone who cares about it can do. Call people out who are saying unacceptable things, either publicly or privately, by PMing Simon. I don't get the sense that there are really trolls here. The worst offenders probably really think they are being entertaining.
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Date Aug. 5 2014 4:14:10
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cristina
Posts: 47
Joined: Mar. 7 2014
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RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to estebanana)
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Thank’s Estebanana for bringing up this topic. I’m pretty new on this foro but now want to share some of my experiences (my english is really horrible, so please be indulgent) – you can skip Nr. 1 1. Am I a guitarrist? IMO definitly/resolutly: no, I‘m not. I am playing the guitar, I need to play her, I’m learning Flamenco since the 70ies, playing sometimes more, sometimes less. So I would say: I’m a guitar-player. A „guitarrist“ for me is one, who decided to spend most of his time to the guitar, is a professional or aspiring to be one , or a very advenced guitarrist. P.e. El Farru plays the guitar but is not a guitarrist, the videos with Camaron playing the guitar you will know. In my youth I decided deliberately, NOT to b e a guitarist and spend 4 – 8 hours a day practising. I’ve had too much other interests and had to gain my money also for the family. But in my later years I was able to comply with one of my main intentions: to accompany el cante when someone wants/needs to sing and there’s no other guitar around. Once retired, I finaly could play 3 – 6 hours a day. And then a bad, flourishing arthrosis catched me. (therefore more time to write and read the foro) 2. Personal experiences here - There was one point , where I tought: let it be, no vale la pena, it is’nt worthy. It was the thread about How difficult flamenco is. The answers: the biggest difficulty in Flamenco ist how to go to a peña without your girlfriend. I could have answered only in a cynical way but I don’t want to be cynic. - The dialalogues/ discussions are too often about „who is right, who hast the ultimative answer and the last word“ - that’s annoying and repugnant and kind of ridiculous. a little kindergarten-like and good example for Freud’s theory about competition ( don’t want to mention the german phrase) - seems to exist a tendency (not only in this foro) : men take notice of men and react more to them. E.g.: The newest female member is cereza, you gave her a very warm welcome. Her first contribution was the Fandango from Camaron with Paco – silence, no reactions, alone in the desert. I bet, if she has had put a question , there had been some responses – look, a woman, who needs help! So, here you are cheers
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Date Aug. 5 2014 8:47:08
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to estebanana)
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I tend to agree with a lot of Miguel de Marias points ... depending on what the action is you will find a varying number of men to women ... Although you will find girls in all things , if you have to generalize , and i am , you will find on any guitar forum more men than women . in guitar making same , in dancing more women that men in singing maybe the same amount .. However , i dont fully see what estebanana 's plan is .. I personally dont see that there is a problem here on women being treated any more or less than any other place , In every workplace or recreational event you will find people from all over who treat other differently than you . some loud , some nice some uncouth .. but nobody really OTT . everyone welcomes the input of all people .. cristina made a point earlier that after a post by cereza they was silence and no replies ..I dont think that means anything , some threads just kind of peterout as people loose interest in following them . I myself have posted bits of falsetas that i played and recorded for the foro and got no replies at all . in fact that happened a few times i wondered if my posts were invisible , alas no , just people didnt comment on them .. but i didnt have to say it was injust or anything was wrong or it made me feel bad or even mention it at all (not including now , as an example ) If there were some remarks that put women off by being derogatory in some way , i think it would be a very small amount , by a very small amount of members i feel absolutely sure that the reason there are less girls here in not because of that . By all means have this discussion thread but unless you put forward some solid suggestive remedies , i dont see the end result of what you have in mind ...
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Date Aug. 5 2014 9:48:09
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3457
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Morante)
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quote:
There are far more female dancers than guitarists in the amateur flamenco world; if they were to take part, it could be of great value for guitarists learning to accompany dance. Your comment suggests that if female dancers were to participate in Foro discussions it would be of value for guitarists, and that is true. But what about dancers discussing dance as a topic in and of itself, without necessarily referencing its value for guitarists? There are many threads on the Foro devoted to Cante, not necessarily referencing its relationship and value for guitarists, but as a discrete topic in and of itself. Why not for dance? Although the Foro's original, and continuing, emphasis may be the guitar, there is no reason why it could not include dance, just as it has all along included Cante. That might draw more women into the fold and introduce them to other topics for discussion on the Foro as well. And in the end we would all benefit from their presence. I certainly benefited from the comments and perspective of some of the women mentioned in my previous post above. Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 5 2014 13:21:51
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3457
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
I associate flamenco with a counter top, a glass of beer and guys who listen to cante and palmas and don't whine about breaking finger nails. Then I think about my dancer friends and how they smoke outside between sets and then order a manzanilla. Then after about 20 minutes I think:"Oh wait! There are these things called guitars and some times you even find person who can play the silly thing and be flamenco and not whine about his scale length." Spot-on, Stephen. I would go even further. I associate flamenco with your counter-top and a glass of beer (or manzanilla), listening to cante and palmas (and a guitar; I'm not adverse to that), with no whining about finger nails and scale length; while at the same time discussing black holes, singularities, the joy of living in Micronesia, and the reasons for Argentina's current (and inevitable once-a decade) financial crisis. In other words, flamenco, not as a discrete activity; rather, intertwined with other interests and activities as a "lived experience," preferably with women at the table. Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 5 2014 14:42:23
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to estebanana)
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Keep in mind the foro was founded, more or less, from a pool of participants in another guitar-centric forum. That might be one of the reasons for its limited scope. Personally, I came here for guitar-chat and support. As the years go by, I need this less and less, and find online forums in general much less interesting. Before, I was mostly into picado threads, now, I keep my eye out for provacative off-topic stuff--art, politics, history, old man stuff, fun stuff. If you want a more diverse membership, try to figure out why people talk on forums and try to bring more of the stuff that attracts them. What do flamenco singers and dancers want to know or talk about? Maybe some experienced guitarists can upload some tutorials to help beginning singers and dancers, or upload some basic compas for them to practice to. Maybe some experienced dancers can upload some vid of them dancing, and the guitarists can add the guitar to the track to see how they do. Or guitarists can upload falsetas for specific purposes, and the singers and dancers can chime in on whether it would work for them in performance. One elephant in the room is that people who know, don't say, right? So any forum will be dominated by beginners/intermediates... but that's okay. After all, the pros more than likely are already up to the gills in flamenco and don't necessarily want to sit around here and talk about nails or Condes all day. (just a theory--there are counter-examples, like at Gearslutz)
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Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it. https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Aug. 5 2014 16:29:42
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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still not sure what you want to do .... I just came from a flamenco dance type forum , actually a dance forum in general with a flamenco section ... and its girls girls girls judging by the nicknames , and they talk about , dance and flamenco and dresses , like them or hate them ..etc no surprises there .. but if you wanted to do something ,... Instead of whinging and whining '' oh, we got no girls here they wont come cos we dont know how to talk to them , '' like as if females are aliens from another planet ..... (That is your real tunnel vision , estebanana) Why not just go over to another forum where there are girls that are interested in flamenco dance , dress , cante , palmas .. the whole thing .. and then invite them over to put up some usable sounds clips made for them ... by request ...Sevillanas ,..ok his is how it goes and off you go ..... ¿You dont agree ?... OK then make your own suggested remedy
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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Aug. 5 2014 17:00:32
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to akatune)
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no i didnt miss the point at all , its as you said , about how people are treated , not just girls .... but how are you going to change what you dont like ... by doing it ....yes ...? not to get more numbers or anything . like a political party , that is definetly missing my point ... what do you want to do? ,, go back through every bodies posts for the last 5 years and say ...there look what you said ... you cant change what has happened .. and pointing the finger at anyone wont help .. all you can do is .. starting from now , change things ...put in place an idea , so that an unpleasant situation cannot happen again ... if you think that is what is needed ... What I am saying is , here right now in this thread I see a lot of moaning , but not one suggestion to change anything for the future , not one .. So what will happen will people will moan and whinge and then the thread will naturally die due to lack of interest ... and then in two years time will come back again and someone will say , we already had this thread ... but what was done about it ? ....that was my point ..... now you see .
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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Aug. 5 2014 17:20:14
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Mark2
Posts: 1862
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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When I was in my early 20's I lived with a lovely girl from Coos Bay Or, who was an avid crab fisherperson. In fact, she had spent some time working in a crab picking factory. We spent many afternoons on the piers at fort point in San Francisco or Pacifica drinking beer and crabbing. I've never seen anyone extract more crab from a crab than her, and in record time as well. Sometimes we'd bring home two small crabs and she would find enough meet in them for a crab feast. I'd imagine she would be able to offer some solid advice on a crab fishing forum :-) One of her many talents. As to the subject, I'm sure everyone would benefit from more female participation, or more participation in general. I agree with Miguel that people who are directly involved in flamenco likely have a lot of their desire to converse about the subject handled in their day to day affairs. I've become more interested in "internet flamenco" since I stopped being an active member of the local scene. Got to get the fix somewhere........ quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria It I have a feeling if you go to rock guitar forums, or bluegrass guitar forums, or, for that matter, racecar-driving or cabinet-making or crab fishing forums, you will also find few women. There just aren't that many female flamenco guitar players--or, I imagine, crab fisher...women.
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Date Aug. 5 2014 17:41:57
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