RE: Building a Student Model

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Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

Beautifully efficient work.

Really, man!

Stuffed with rather gifted hands that can put out demanding shapes and functional pieces, while on the other hand being so inefficient in terms of fast and focussed production, the efficient and thought through routine demonstrated by Stephen has a very special beauty to me personally.

And I suppose certain details like say that clamping tower during the levelling of the bindings could be inspiring to colleagues of his. Just like much of the thread must be of great value for professionals.

It could turn some from masters of gems into blazingly fast masters of gems, which would be downright scary.

Ruphus

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2014 20:49:03

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Ruphus)

Nice work.
I think I'd be a little scared of dropping that big blue clamp, lol. I use two smaller ones there.
Overall you and I work very similarly, but I'd say you're a fair bit faster than me. Often I find myself just eyeing my work from different angles for a few minutes before moving on the next task.
What pickup system are you going to use?

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2014 21:07:08

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Ruphus)

I finished the main part of the the building work this morning. With not much left to do but polish and setup work, I have started polishing. The next picture will hopefully be of the guitar with strings on!

Andy It's the Fishman Prefix Pro Blend same as you have done recently I believe. It is not in the most typical place to put it as it Simply wont fit in the upper bout of my shape!

Ethan the neck goes from 21.5mm up to 23.5mm. It's not that interesting so I didn't include a picture.

The need for lower priced guitars is something I have always cared about. I know a fair few teachers at universities that complain about the poor quality instruments their students own. Without spending say £2500 plus they will struggle to get something that will be capable of what they need. My aims with guitars like these is to help the younger generation especially and of course the less well off, appreciate what a true hand made guitar has to offer for less than a top of the line factory instrument.

I am pretty certain working like this would suit very few people in this craft. It just so happens that it plays to all of my strengths. I have an absolute blast producing guitars this quickly and really helps with research. If I want to try something I can find out the results of the trial in a week or two.

Any way a big thank you to all that have posted comments or even just had a little look at what this thread is about.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2014 13:28:46

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1675
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Bravo!

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2014 14:44:14

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Stephen Eden)

damn....so you could, in theory, produce by hand, almost 50 guitars a year of this quality. And if you had a brother working with you doing the exact same job and speed, double that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2014 14:55:26

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Stephen Eden)

So it seems, this was the making of a guitar in 5 or 6 days.
In discussions about inflated pricings one of the arguments was that it would be taking months to build.
Some indeed invest a lot of time, like Tom Blackshear who dedicates a lot of individual efforts before finish.

However, as it was just demonstrated in this thread, one needn´t be flamed -like I was in a classical guitar forum once- for remarking that good guitars can be produced in a week.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

Ethan the neck goes from 21.5mm up to 23.5mm. It's not that interesting so I didn't include a picture.

Could be to my individual taste. Quite like that size ( actually 21 mm) measured at first fret, was a guitar that once stood out to me as specially well playable. Same about the profile ( D-shape).

And I like the head shape. Both, the stylized aesthetics of the crown as well as the tapered form of the peghead.
Together with the overall appearance really nice features still for a down-scaled guitar.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

The need for lower priced guitars is something I have always cared about. I know a fair few teachers at universities that complain about the poor quality instruments their students own. Without spending say £2500 plus they will struggle to get something that will be capable of what they need. My aims with guitars like these is to help the younger generation especially and of course the less well off, appreciate what a true hand made guitar has to offer for less than a top of the line factory instrument.

I´m with Ethan on this. Bravo!
Really a great way to do.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2014 17:04:05

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Ruphus)

Wow, that's amazing how quick you can build a guitar...
Thanks a lot for starting this thread, I really enjoyed it.
Are you going to post a soundclip when its finished?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2014 17:26:17

Joan Maher

Posts: 213
Joined: Dec. 3 2013

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Ruphus)

Thanks for this it was a nice post Stephen - another one could be "building a concert guitar" I would be interested to see the difference in the process (if any)..

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Gracias!

Joan Josep Maher

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 25 2014 9:10:05

Blondie#2

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden
Andy It's the Fishman Prefix Pro Blend same as you have done recently I believe. It is not in the most typical place to put it as it Simply wont fit in the upper bout of my shape!

Have you considered the Fishman Presys Blend, it has a smaller footprint.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 25 2014 10:08:02

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Ruphus)

Unfortunalty my brother is a hair dresser but I guess that means he would be particually good at that orange colour?

Indeed Rufus. I have been in conversations like that too where once the time taken to produce a guitar is faster than popular belief the words cutting corners, poor craftsmanship and poor quality are thrown around. Mainly due to disbelief. I am usually the one left feeling a little put out by these comments. So instead of saying it was possible I thought it would better to show how it's done so you can all see that none of the above were an issue in this kind of build.

Koenie17 I would like to post a video. I am not a good player in the slightest so I am going to see if I can find someone to play it for me. It is going to a professional player in Serbia so I am told. Maybe I could see if he could do something I will see.

Joan I only did this thready to show something new. The differences are mainly cosmetics especially in the Flamenco Student model. On the concert guitar I use my best looking woods too.

Blondie I didn't even know that pick up existed! This is only the third I have ever installed and it was purchased for me so was fairly out of my hands

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 25 2014 13:42:45

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Ruphus)

The idea that good quality work, especially when it comes to musical instruments, can be done in a relatively short amount of time surprises a lot of people.

I have a lute maker friend who makes lovely no frills student model 8-course lutes with 11 rib bowls in less than 25 working hours....and that includes making the 15 tuning pegs, hand-cutting a simple rose in the soundboard and a quick Tru-Oil finish on the bowl and neck. He's even faster when he works on two or three at the same time. It's a simple design but very cleanly executed. And they have a nice sound.

Like my buddy the lute guy, the majority of the most highly skilled professional craftspeople I've met over the years have developed very efficient methods of working. They know their tools, their jigs and fixtures and their materials. They don't obsess over every stroke of the chisel or stop to admire every swipe they make with a plane. They don't stand around with their hand on their ass waiting for glue to dry (there's always something else to do) and they don't spend half the day fantasizing about being great artistes or talking incessantly about themselves on internet forums. They simply get the work done to a high standard in a no nonsense manner and move on to the next task.

The polar opposite of this is a guitar maker (whose name I won't mention) who once proudly declared on another forum that he had spent 12 years refining a single guitar. Yikes!!!

If it were me, I'd be ashamed to admit it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 25 2014 14:03:00

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Ruphus)

Just so you know: It looks as if you had just been praised by our otherwise rather gnarly specialist Sir Vega!
- An occurance common like hens´ teeth.

Yep, a recording would be nice! At best not too close miked, but well captured in the room.
To me personally also interesting the weight of the stringed up guitar.

And I would like to learn about how you took out the chunks length wise from the perforated neck blank. ( Probably chiseled. But how do you such that deep without splits occuring along grain?)

Thank you for the kind info in advance!

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 25 2014 16:22:13

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Ruphus)

Ahhh I have finally gotten around to getting these pictures of the finished guitar up! I heard the guitar has finally reached it owner almost a month after it was finished! The new owner is very pleased.

I have asked if he can get record something for me so you can all hear it. If I can't get one I have another one to build and that one will get a video.

Any way thank you all again for your questions and comments and hope you like the final pictures.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2014 19:43:53

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Ruphus)

Last two

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2014 19:45:28

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Great pictures.

I really enjoyed this thread from start to finish.

Stephen are you planning on building any more student guitars? Also, I saw you made a Cedar/Ziricote negra (which is on sale). I've played a few steel strings with Ziricote, I'd be intrigued how it'd work out for a negra.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2014 20:00:09

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Ruphus)

Looks good! Specially for a speed birth.

No oil or wax for the fretboard?

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2014 20:41:02

Vince

Posts: 141
Joined: Oct. 21 2012
From: Germany

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Ruphus)

Hello Seden,
one question to your jig for gluing the bindings.
Have you build two, or can you flip it over to glue the other side?

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http://www.gitarrenbau-held.de/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2014 7:18:37

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Ruphus)

Cheers all I'm glad you enjoyed it. As I said it was my first build thread and I had some fun doing it. It's hard work taking pictures and sorting them out so I can put them up. It makes me appreciate all of the effort the the others put into showing there work.

tijeretamiel - Yes I will be making more. It will become a permanent fixture to the catalog. I will also not limit the production of these guitars. At the moment they will only be available through an online flamenco guitar shop.

The Cedar Ziricote guitar was really nice and very flamenco. The Ziricote didn't change the sound much as I worked it a little thinner than I would an IndianRW negra. I wanted to keep sounding the same but have the look of the Ziricote.

Ruphus - It has a lemon oil finish. It drys matt so it hard to see.

Vince - Yes I have two binding Jigs. One for each side. It's very handy when making two or more guitars at a time.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2014 8:24:38

theodoropoulos

Posts: 10
Joined: Mar. 23 2014

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Could you please show us the template you follow for the sides???

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 31 2014 3:10:36

Edzard

Posts: 20
Joined: Oct. 11 2010
From: Eindhoven - The Netherlands

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Ruphus)

Very nice. Congrats!

Regards,

Edzard

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 31 2014 7:20:40

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

The final two pictures are just there to show todays progress.

I hope you have enjoyed day one of my first build thread. Let me know if there is anything specific you would like to see me doing and I will try and take a picture of it.

How did you cut the curves on the heel end of the neck? Bandsaw?
Did you smooth it out with a rasp or anything else?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2015 3:44:09

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Culpepper

I've always admired your organized and efficient approach to building, Stephen. And your guitars look and sound great, and presumably are not falling apart too often, lol.

One question about Titebond as I've started experimenting with it, I take it you don't think Titebond II or III provide better results than the Original?

Andy,

I happened to read this on the MIMF site earlier today:

Titebond II, Titebond III Waterproof (II), longer open time (III) Not recommended for lutherie, doesn't dry hard. (they recommend Titebond original)

i have used Titebond II and III for general woodworking though. My biggest problem is with squeeze out, I need to learn to not put too much on.

Joel

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2015 4:04:51

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Ruphus)

Stephen,

I have never built a guitar but hope to this year.
This has been really inspiring and educational and a great overview of the process.
I agree that a hand crafted lower priced guitar would be desired and appreciated by many students.
Thanks for sharing this.

Joel

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2015 4:38:46

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 5 2015 20:18:57

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2015 16:39:38

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

I agree that a hand crafted lower priced guitar would be desired and appreciated by many students.
Thanks for sharing this.

Darren Hippner, a North West Coast maker, builds low to middle price line guitars and he stays busy with this style of building; with different models reflecting the older master builders. He obviously is trying to compete with Mexico prices for a more quality build.

It seems a lot of builders are trying for the low end market these days. I tried this back in the mid 70's by competing with the Japanese, and finally had to give up and build the best guitar I could and charge what I needed to earn a living.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2015 17:05:29

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

... I spent 12 years in all to refine a guitar ...

There are Artisans and then there are Artists. And on the point I concur with Leonardo Da Vinci's view, "art can never be completed, only abandoned".

Among all of your personality flaws (I myself may have highlighted overtime), Tom your relentless pursuit may appear tedious to some, but I believe and agree it is the only way to achieve perfection, or even just the shadow of its elusive spirit.

No artist can ever be pleased with his work, and surrender to the deceptive pleasure of success. Artists are restlessly dissatisfied even with their best work, and that is the painful condition that makes them productive.

My two cent compliment to you Tom. Not only I would not be ashamed of your life long dedication, but indeed rather proud of it.

And Cheers to the many guitar labels that will now begin to sport the new year, Happy 2015 !!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2015 16:26:37

Tom Blackshear

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2015 18:40:27

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Ruphus)

Hey Guys Happy new year to you.

Theodoropoulos - the picture at the bottom is the template for the sides I use. I made it after I had already shaped the sides of a guitar I was building. It has made over 100 guitar so far and as you can see held together with masking tape! Perhaps it's time for a new one!

Cheers Edzard.

Cervantes, I used the bandsaw to cut the curves on the heel and the slipper. I used a sanding drum to clean up the slipper. The heel gets cleaned up when I carve it so I leave it until that moment.

It's great to know it has been somewhat inspirational. Of course this is just one way to skin the cat so to speak.

I have found a great market for the cheaper classical guitar, with many musicians agreeing that sound is everything and the look is of no consequence. Infact the only person who saw one and decided that they wanted looks ended up spending over twice what I charge to get the best of both.

I haven't found it to be quite the same with the flamenco guitar market so far. I still havent built another one of these. Yet I have built 10 classicals with orders for up to 7 more already.

Tom - Fortunately the build does not work me to the bone, niether do I have to stay in my shop all day to achieve it. I said to my self I would only make these if it made economical and of course physical sense.
Over here there is no other builder attempting to compete with a factory so I thought I would do something different and use a skill I have that not many others do so I have been told.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2015 18:17:50

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a Student Model (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

Tom - Fortunately the build does not work me to the bone, neither do I have to stay in my shop all day to achieve it. I said to my self I would only make these if it made economical and of course physical sense.
Over here there is no other builder attempting to compete with a factory so I thought I would do something different and use a skill I have that not many others do so I have been told.

I suppose we'll have to see how you do with it. It's been tried many times before and very few that I know have made a habit of it, builders like Bob Ruck and Richard Brune, to mention a couple.

Even I tried a system of 6 guitars at a time and found that the market would not support it without having help from an outside source to market them for me. And by the time things started working with added instruments, something would always get in the way of spending the time involved to make enough guitars to fill the orders.

So, if you can make this work, then the more power to you.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2015 14:12:58