Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!!

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wiking

Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!!

So I posted earlier today about downstroke golpes and was wondering why it was killing my finger so much. I did some researching and found that while my 12th fret action as pretty standard at 3mm on the nose, the height of the strings was a little tall at the bridge. Since I am reasonably handy (engineering student!) I took out the saddle, marked it to reduce 12th fret action to 2.5mm and started filing, gripping it in a vice.

As I got closer and closer to my pencil mark, I tested it out a couple times, taking it slow. I'd tune up, play a little, then go back to filing, noting a steady improvement in ease of fingering, but no real change in overall "tone". This slow and steady method took a couple hours but it paid off big:

For some reason, after I got it to 2.6mm, just a hair above my mark, something magical happened. The guitar became raspier, louder, brighter. The buzzing became more subtle, tighter. It's overall volume and tonality became more... flamenco? I can't really explain it. It now sounds like the most classic of classic blancas I've ever heard (this is a Navarro Student blanca with pegs) and I'm absolutely AMAZED. And to top it all off, my goal of bringing the action at the bridge down to facilitate a better downstroke golpe above the strings worked a charm- I can do it all day now. Needless to say, I stopped filing right there and called it a day.

So, I think I managed to give an already great guitar just the tiniest little nudge it needed to move into FANTASTIC guitar territory. This setup is exactly where this guitar wants to be... I'm just too thrilled that I managed to do it myself, as a total amateur.

Had to share my joy. I'll try and put up some quality recordings soon.

Olé!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 9 2014 15:07:54

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to wiking)

Commonly higher action would mean louder... I have settled at around 2.8mm for the bass E. I've experimented quite a bit with action height, 2.6mm is on the low side a bit but if you don't play loud and don't use much cejilla on the higher frets you'll be fine. I've heard manolo sanlucar used very low action but you can hear lots of buzzing in his playing

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 9 2014 15:16:01

wiking

Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to tele)

I guess each guitar is an individual and mine just like this a bit more. At around 2.8, where I first tested, it wasn't very much different tonally or in feel. Glad I kept going. Bone nuts are cheap so whatever, haha. The added perceived volume may just be the improved tones from the trebles and more sparkly basses coming through more since the strings are closer to the body.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 9 2014 15:33:51

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to wiking)

My action is around 1.9 - 2.3 depending on the humidity.

I find there's a threshold where the volume drops and the mids get more in your face. That's where I like it, less volume is also a plus for me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 9 2014 18:03:49

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins
less volume is also a plus for me.

What!? Guitars are already so quiet that the loudest ones can't compete with any symphonic instrument. Are you living in a thin walled apartment?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 9 2014 23:02:58

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

What!? Guitars are already so quiet that the loudest ones can't compete with any symphonic instrument. Are you living in a thin walled apartment?

Volume is a relative thing and I usually don't play soft. Not deaf either.

Good thing is that we have mics and P.A.'s to use so I don't really see the need to make every instrument as loud as possible. Tone is what matters to me and I prefer to extract dirtier sounds from the guitar by playing it harder than getting pretty much the same sound and a lot more volume. That's annoying, especially to my right ear.

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 9 2014 23:35:21

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

Good thing is that we have mics and P.A.'s to use so I don't really see the need to make every instrument as loud as possible.

I don't consider mikes and P.A.'s to have anything to do with musical instruments. I suppose I'm a little old fashioned but before the onset of arthritis I was considered a very loud powerful player by most people and I always hated the idea of needing an amplifier. Sadly the guitar is at best a parlor instrument best suited to intimate settings so any extra volume is a plus in my opinion; but whatever turns your crank

.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 10 2014 2:17:59

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to wiking)

I appreciate your post and the other replies because as a guitar maker it is good--necessary--to know the setups people like. So thanks for posting.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 10 2014 5:16:05

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

other replies because as a guitar maker it is good--necessary--to know the setups people like.

If you are asking for my two cents: Between 3.0mm to 2.8mm on mine. I find anything lower, makes the G string slide latterly on the saddle (not staying in place) - making it sound not as musical to my ear in regard to a lower saddle. This is the case on any nylon guitar that I have own being flamenco or classical.
Even the smaller diameter string doesn't help. Once the g string starts sliding on the saddle as you play, it loses a musical value in my opinion. It my be easier to play lower, but I want to a note close to the B string in sound quality.

So, I don't go any lower than 2.8 for the G string for that reason. Hope that makes sense to you, Mr. Deutsch.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 10 2014 15:47:10

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to SephardRick)

quote:

If you are asking for my two cents: Between 3.0mm to 2.8mm on mine. I find anything lower, makes the G string slide latterly on the saddle (not staying in place) - making it sound not as musical to my ear in regard to a lower saddle. This is the case on any nylon guitar that I have own being flamenco or classical.
Even the smaller diameter string doesn't help. Once the g string starts sliding on the saddle as you play, it loses a musical value in my opinion. It my be easier to play lower, but I want to a note close to the B string in sound quality.

So, I don't go any lower than 2.8 for the G string for that reason. Hope that makes sense to you, Mr. Deutsch.

This doesnt make sense... The height of the string over the 12th fret has nothing to do with how the string sits on the saddle and how much it will slide or not. What matters there is the string height at the bridge and the breakangle. You can have all kinds of stringheights at the bridge and saddle depending on your neckangle.

Another thing is that I agree that going lower than 2,8mm is IMHO going to low. You gain very little if anything in playability and loose a lot of projection and and volume.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 10 2014 16:13:48

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

This doesnt make sense... The height of the string over the 12th fret has nothing to do with how the string sits on the saddle and how much it will slide or not. What matters there is the string height at the bridge and the breakangle. You can have all kinds of stringheights at the bridge and saddle depending on your neckangle

You got the point - The break angle. It is not strong enough on my the guitars I own to hold the G string in place. I've been playing for forty-eight years. When I hit the strings, I hit them hard. So, they might be more prone to movement than others.
I'll give you an example. Sunday night I jamming with a friend. I using an electric guitar. I broke three light gauge picks.

I prefer 2.8mm to 3.0mm and that an explaination why I prefer it.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 10 2014 16:26:59

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to SephardRick)

I went from around 3.2mm to 2.8mm and it did lessen a bit the volume of the guitar, or maybe it was a placebo

I have noticed that some guitars react better to low setup such as 2.5mm, I mean buzz less, must be in the pulsation of the top and the neck angle and possible curvature. some luthiers create slight curve(0.1-0.2mm) to the neck at 2-5th fret as that's the worst buzzing zone.

with very low setup I've noticed the buzzing is worst at 7th fret and up

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 10 2014 17:06:23

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to SephardRick)

quote:

You got the point - The break angle. It is not strong enough on my the guitars I own to hold the G string in place.

You'll get a bigger break angle if you have your bridge converted to 12 holes.
Its a straightforward job for a luthier.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2014 7:18:52

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to krichards)

quote:

You'll get a bigger break angle if you have your bridge converted to 12 holes

I've been toying with that idea over a year. The only thing stopping me is altering the historic value of the instruments. Original nuts, saddles, and tuning keys can be set aside and experimented with replacements. But drilling holes in the bridge is a permanent modification.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2014 15:01:18

Blondie#2

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to SephardRick)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SephardRick

quote:

You'll get a bigger break angle if you have your bridge converted to 12 holes

I've been toying with that idea over a year. The only thing stopping me is altering the historic value of the instruments. Original nuts, saddles, and tuning keys can be set aside and experimented with replacements. But drilling holes in the bridge is a permanent modification.

So get some string ties:
http://www.string-tie.com/

No modification, cheap to try.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2014 15:07:45

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to Blondie#2)

quote:

So get some string ties

Interesting...Have you tried them? If so, did they increase string tension on top of the saddle?

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2014 15:16:36

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to wiking)

These string ties will work as 12 hole bridge and give a lot more breakangle over the saddle compared to using a 6 hole tieblock and tying the trad. way.
My personal opinion about breakangle is that more breakangle doesnt have to be better. Enough is enough and on some guitars it can be very little.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2014 15:23:15

etta

Posts: 342
Joined: Jan. 20 2010

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to wiking)

And what about string tension? I generally use "high tension" strings and therefore can set the action very low, 2.5 bass, some less on treble. The guitar is very playable with no real loss in volume/projection.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2014 15:24:53

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

These string ties will work as 12 hole bridge and give a lot more breakangle over the saddle compared to using a 6 hole tieblock and tying the trad. way.
My personal opinion about breakangle is that more breakangle doesnt have to be better. Enough is enough and on some guitars it can be very little.

Thanks for the advice.

The string holes are very worn weakening the break angle too. Think I'll bit the bullet and fill in the string holes with rosewood dowels and redrill.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2014 15:26:52

Bliblablub

Posts: 60
Joined: Oct. 9 2013

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins
Volume is a relative thing

I think it is safe to say that volume is not a relative thing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2014 17:11:36

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to Bliblablub)

quote:

I think it is safe to say that volume is not a relative thing.

That's fine by me but you are wrong.

What I consider to be "low volume" might be someone else's "huge volume". Got it?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2014 17:47:29

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

I think the point here is that volume can be perceived to be greater than before, when you have made a change. That is relative and may be subjective. Without stringent lab tests it may be impossible to tell, but if it were my guitar and I was happy, then I would be, well... happy. Fiddling with guitars is fun.

When I bought a cheap Bernal, a tuner broke so I installed black Schaller Hausers. Stephen Hill put in a bone nut and saddle and it made a big difference to me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2014 18:14:14

Bliblablub

Posts: 60
Joined: Oct. 9 2013

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

quote:

I think it is safe to say that volume is not a relative thing.

That's fine by me but you are wrong.

What I consider to be "low volume" might be someone else's "huge volume". Got it?

Fine by you but wrong? what?
Perception of volume, not volume, is what you're talking about. Yes that is relative, not the volume itself though.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2014 19:53:45

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to Bliblablub)

Leave it, please. This is not physics discussion of absolutes.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2014 19:57:36

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

Leave it, please. This is not physics discussion of absolutes.

Even taken all together we wouldn't be as smart as one Planck, never mind two. Not that he believed in absolutes.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2014 20:02:45

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Ok, without referring to Wikipedia, I can accept that volume is not an absolute or constant but a relative analogue measurement

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2014 20:16:12

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to Bliblablub)

quote:

Perception of volume, not volume, is what you're talking about. Yes that is relative, not the volume itself though.

You came here to talk about stuff out of context. No one mentioned measurements or scales, just "loud" and "less loud" so.. you win.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2014 20:20:42

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- ... (in reply to Escribano)

I think Fernando Sor said something like.

'I would like a guitar to louder only so I could diminish it more' (maybe).

And 'A guitarist who is a harmonist, will always have an advantage over one who is not', which is an accurate quote, and very flamenco.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2014 20:28:08