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xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

Saddle bone - ivory or camel? 
Hi friends, I'm seeking advice. Last week I took my guitar to a local luthier who fixed the setup of my guitar. However, it turns out that the current saddle on my guitar is not bone, but plastic. I have 3 options now. My friend Beno is recommending the product "Tusq"; but I also have access to ivory and camel, my father (also a musician) says that ivory will sound good but is a softer bone so it'll wear quickly.

Can you guys share your experiences regarding these?

My guitar has a very dry tone, and I'm looking for something to make it a little bit warmer.

Gracias!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 14 2014 14:51:16
 
cruzguitars

 

Posts: 4
Joined: Apr. 19 2014
 

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ) 
ivory makes a nice sound
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 14 2014 15:07:23
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ) 
For a warm tone, logically it should be something rather towards the soft side of the material palette.
From there I suppose good old bone to serve you best. ( Bone should be softter than ivory.)

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 14 2014 17:52:19
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ) 
payo bone

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 3:52:38
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ) 
vaca bone

Get bone, Ivory is fine sonically, but it is politically unfavorable today. The US just two months ago instituted a rather draconian ivory ban policy and you never know how airport security personnel will interpret the policy on the spot.

There will be increasing difficulty with international travel with ivory components on guitars and instruments and I strongly advise against using it for that and other reasons. There will also be the possibility you will have to replace the ivory if you ever want to sell the guitar across a border as all the western countries are stepping up ivory restrictions.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 4:03:03
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to Ruphus) 
quote:

For a warm tone, logically it should be something rather towards the soft side of the material palette.
From there I suppose good old bone to serve you best. ( Bone should be softer than ivory.)


Depending which ivory and which bone the hardness varies. Ivory from different kinds of animals has different density and hardness. It also depends whether is it fossil ivory or new ivory.

Bone is bone, ivory is from hair cells. Weird huh/.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 4:09:06
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ) 
I want rhino horn saddle!! So metal! \m/

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 5:11:31
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ) 
I´ve tried Bone, Tusq and bone and I prefer bone.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 7:04:25
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

For a warm tone, logically it should be something rather towards the soft side of the material palette.
From there I suppose good old bone to serve you best. ( Bone should be softer than ivory.)


Depending which ivory and which bone the hardness varies. Ivory from different kinds of animals has different density and hardness. It also depends whether is it fossil ivory or new ivory.

Bone is bone, ivory is from hair cells. Weird huh/.


You are erring here, Stephen.
Ivory should always be harder than any bone, and it is comprised 60% of dentin and 40% of cartilage-like substance. On the Mohs scale of hardness it ranks between 2-3; bone around 5.

What comes from hair cells are rhionceros´ horns which neither have something in common with ivory nor with common horn.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 8:20:14
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ) 
Otto Vowinkel, a dutch classical luthier have experimented a while with ivory.
He stopped with it, to his taste the sound is a bit harsh / shrill.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 8:34:13
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ) 
the only issue with ivory is the legal problems of selling and transportation. you might want to leave the ivory at home if traveling outside of your native country.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 11:52:37
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to keith) 
i will probably have them all made, and try - right now i'm leaning towards ivory, of course if and when i sell, that'll be a different situation...
thanks for all the input!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 11:58:40
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to estebanana) 
Is there really a difference in sound be it camel, ivory or cow? I am very sceptical about that

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 12:59:46
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to Ruphus) 
quote:

ou are erring here, Stephen.
Ivory should always be harder than any bone, and it is comprised 60% of dentin and 40% of cartilage-like substance. On the Mohs scale of hardness it ranks between 2-3; bone around 5.

What comes from hair cells are rhionceros´ horns which neither have something in common with ivory nor with common horn.

Ruphus
 


Well, l've owned and carved ivory from walrus, elephant and narwhal tusks and compared it to bone from cows. And experience with actual material indicates ivory and bone hardness is variable sample to sample and different species to species.

You can submit your shop experience with both bone and ivory if you care to.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 13:17:20
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ) 
quote:

My guitar has a very dry tone, and I'm looking for something to make it a little bit warmer.


I thought Paco's signature on your guitar took care of increasing the temperature to a "warmer feel"...

Seriously, as Anders and S. Faulk seem to also recommend, I wouldn't even dwell on the synthetic material option. Bone, for saddle, nut and even for the pegs on your tuning machines.

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gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 13:42:51
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to gj Michelob) 
the nut is bone (cow I assume) but if there's enough material I'll try to have that made out of the other two as well and start experimenting...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 14:26:41
 
SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014
 

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

The US just two months ago instituted a rather draconian ivory ban policy and you never know how airport security personnel will interpret the policy on the spot.

There will be increasing difficulty with international travel with ivory components on guitars and instruments and I strongly advise against using it for that and other reasons.


Hey Steve,

Thanks for the heads up. That's one more policy the TSA has to hassle us with.

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Rick
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 14:36:01
 
SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014
 

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ) 
Tried Tusq and cow bone too. My perception is bone give more definition and projection than synthetic saddles on nylon string guitars.


Although, I might add Tusq sounds better on some steel string instruments - if you are into that.

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Rick
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 14:45:09
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to SephardRick) 
quote:

Tried Tusq and cow bone too. My perception is bone give more definition and projection than synthetic saddles on nylon string guitars.


Although, I might add Tusq sounds better on some steel string instruments - if you are into that.


My experinece is the same but i havent tried tusq on steelstrings. Maybe I should give it a try.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 15:03:51
 
SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014
 

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

My experinece is the same but i havent tried tusq on steelstrings. Maybe I should give it a try


Surprisingly, I found Tusq saddles on steel strings reduced some of the steel string brittleness and some of the unwanted harmonics on a dreadnaught design. Especially on a 12-string. Also, I found the instruments sustained longer.

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Rick
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 15:59:19
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

You can submit your shop experience with both bone and ivory if you care to.


You must be right. Scientifical odds, periodic system, tables for material properties, density scales and thelikes are not to be trusted.
Better one take a file or saw and make sure about it.

There exists no bone as hard like ivory. And that for good reason of element and structure.
You have merely been mistaken, just like with the claim that ivory would grow of hair follicle. ( Maybe in your shop though? )

If you can´t take such obvious and verifiable fact, how about cooking ivory?
It will finally soften the material and allow to preserve the stainless-steel vision on the matter.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 16:18:23
 
tijeretamiel

 

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012
 

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to Ruphus) 
Unbleached cattle bone is harder than bleached cattle bone, but it seems near enough impossible to find as most prefer the bleached white version which is softer. My blanca has a unbleached cattle bone nut and I like that the most of the ones I own.

I myself would never buy a Ivory saddle/nut or a guitar with it. Not just for ethical reasons, but for tonal reasons of adding a metallic tang to the sound of the guitar.

There are other animal bones/horns which can be used, I've come across other examples including Giraffe bones, from the knees I think which are I think the hardest animal bone/horn around, but again it's supposed to add a metallic tang to the sound.

When it comes to steel strings, I really like Tusq nuts which is a very unfashionable choice in the acoustic guitar community. I don't think the sound is better with Tusq nuts, but I've found I break fewer strings with a Tusq nut than with a bone nut.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 20:17:45
 
Jeff Highland

 

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ) 
quote:

You are erring here, Stephen.
Ivory should always be harder than any bone, and it is comprised 60% of dentin and 40% of cartilage-like substance. On the Mohs scale of hardness it ranks between 2-3; bone around 5.


Rufus, please note that when referring to the mohr's scale, the higher number is always the harder material.
If, as you state, ivory is 2-3 and bone is around 5 then bone is the harder material.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 21:40:37
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to Ruphus) 
quote:

You must be right. Scientifical odds, periodic system, tables for material properties, density scales and thelikes are not to be trusted.
Better one take a file or saw and make sure about it.

There exists no bone as hard like ivory. And that for good reason of element and structure.
You have merely been mistaken, just like with the claim that ivory would grow of hair follicle. ( Maybe in your shop though? )

If you can´t take such obvious and verifiable fact, how about cooking ivory?
It will finally soften the material and allow to preserve the stainless-steel vision on the matter.

Ruphus



YOU MEAN THE BIG WHITE THING GROWING OUT OF AN ELEPHANTS JAW IS A TOOTH LIKE SUBSTANCE!!

OH MY GOD! ALERT THE MEDIA.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2014 23:13:17
 
rojarosguitar

Posts: 243
Joined: Dec. 8 2010
 

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to estebanana) 
I quite like TUSQ. It seems to emphasize the overtones more without killing the fundamentals. In the end it depends on the guitar and your taste. Bone also comes in very different qualities. Bleached bone is different from natural dried bone.

I would not use ivory on the grounds of increasing problems. There was a dramatic story about two ivory flutes destroyed by the customs officials on the spot at the airport...


https://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2013/12/outrage-at-jfk-as-customs-men-smash-flutes.html
See also:

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2014/03/an-official-warning-on-taking-instruments-into-the-usa.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+artsjournal%2FbQrW+%28Slipped+disc%29

http://www.americanorchestras.org/advocacy-government/travel-with-instruments/endangered-species-material/ivory-ban-impact-on-orchestras.html


http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=25377

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 16 2014 0:00:18
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland

Rufus, please note that when referring to the mohr's scale, the higher number is always the harder material.
If, as you state, ivory is 2-3 and bone is around 5 then bone is the harder material.


I stand corrected.
Still, ivory ranks harder than bone.


quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

YOU MEAN THE BIG WHITE THING GROWING OUT OF AN ELEPHANTS JAW IS A TOOTH LIKE SUBSTANCE!!

OH MY GOD! ALERT THE MEDIA.


Alright, but first we need to inform them about how teeth grow from hair cells. hehehe

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 16 2014 1:28:26
 
Jeff Highland

 

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ) 
quote:

I stand corrected.
Still, ivory ranks harder than bone.


huh?
diamond is 10
you say ivory is 2-3 and bone is 5, how does that make ivory harder
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 16 2014 1:52:03
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ) 
Here is a document from the Whitehouse outlining the new ivory policies.

There are a lot of problems with these policies from the standpoint of someone who owns old instruments or wants to travel with them or sell them.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/02/11/fact-sheet-national-strategy-combating-wildlife-trafficking-commercial-b


Here's an article by George Gruhn with commentary on how this effects those of us in the business. I have attached it as jpg.

All the other websites about instruments that I frequent have had major discussions about this ivory ban issue. It might be worth posting a separate thread about this with these sources noted as th OP of this thread had no intention of spurring the conversation away form simply choosing a material for a saddle. So I will start a new thread to list these documents as way getting the information to those who may need to know.

If you are planning to travel with or sell an instrument with ivory parts and you want it to enter or leave the US it might be a good idea to review this information.

The reasons to post these notices is to raise awareness. The owners of instruments with ivory parts should know this policy. One to keep safe the instruments they own and two to write letters and make phone calls to congress to change this draconian policy or rewrite it to make it favorable for those who own old instruments.

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As for the issue of hardness of ivory and bone, it is as I said earlier, the comparison needs to be done sample by sample. There is no absolute hardness for ivory. The hardness varies from species to species and changes with the age of the material.

This can be conformed by dozens of people in the bow, guitar and violin business as a truth. As far as the Mor test, or as we used to call it in geology class the "scratch test" it means that one type of material can scratch another material and as that happens the test builds an index of which materials are harder. It is a test based on comparative hardness.

Comparative hardness of ivory vs. bone changes according to each sample. In most cases bone is harder than ivory, but there can be a certain sample of ivory that will be harder then a certain sample of bone, but in most cases ivory is scratchable with bone. And that is the basis of the Mor test.

Both ivory and bone will make saddles, but as I first threw up the flag of caution, ivory is political today and bone is not.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 16 2014 3:31:57
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to Jeff Highland) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland

quote:

I stand corrected.
Still, ivory ranks harder than bone.


huh?
diamond is 10
you say ivory is 2-3 and bone is 5, how does that make ivory harder


You don´t want to understand.
I said I stand corrected, so forget about the quoted numbers.

Here are more accurate ones:

Ivory: (effective hardness) ~ 5 for hippopotamus and narwhal ivory, which are slightly harder than elephant ivory; [2½ -<3 per Webster, 1948-1949]

Bone: (effective hardness) 5; [2½ - Webster, 1948-1949]

And with that I stand corrected on the relation of the materials as well. Obviously bone can be as hard as ivory, which I would had not thought.
I used to think that dentin comes closer to enamel than bone, which must have been a mistake.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 16 2014 8:55:46
 
Jeff Highland

 

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ) 
quote:

You don´t want to understand


No I merely expect that when someone makes snide remarks about the superiority of published scientific data, over workshop experience, that they should have some understanding of what they are presenting, rather than getting it round the wrong way.
I have no experience with Ivory and make no comment about its properties sonic or physical
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 16 2014 9:45:39
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