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There is a post on GV Reyes flamenco.
Ricardo posted something to affect of why is everyone just copying Reyes, not others?

So master builders, why all the Reyes copies?

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ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

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There is a post on GV Reyes flamenco.
Ricardo posted something to affect of why is everyone just copying Reyes, not others?

So master builders, why all the Reyes copies?

Uhhhh, thats throwing petrol on fire. I think I pass.

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Poster above asked another brilliant question, why not Conde copies galore?

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ORIGINAL: keith

i am amazed there are almost no guitars built which are patterned after conde.

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i am amazed there are almost no guitars built which are patterned after conde.

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So master builders, why all the Reyes copies?

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ORIGINAL: estebanana

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So master builders, why all the Reyes copies?

Because Vicente Amigo became famous for playing a Reyes and many flamenco guitarists want a 1989 Reyes. It's that simple.

Then several makers began offering Reyes copies to satisfy those who could not get an actual 1989 Reyes blanca like the one Vicente played when he got famous. One of the Foro members drew a plan which became available through the Guild of America Luthiers which is a accurate drawing of a particular Reyes guitar and it became widely known.

It's in fact like Kevin Richards' says, there is no Reyes model really he did the same thing everyone else was doing, but did his own variation on it. There are certain individual guitars which become iconic for various reasons. One reason is because a famous guitarist played it, Segovia's Hauser is the prime example. Sabicas' Barbero, which he only used for a short period of time. Vicente's Reyes, it goes on and on.

Another reason people in the English speaking world latched onto Reyes is that he's been known for a very long time and his name is short and easy to pronounce. English speakers can say Ray-ess and not look stupid. It's much harder to say Gerundino. In America people might try to say Geronimo, who as many of you know was an Apache' warrior who was noted by whites for his bravery in battle. When parachutists jump from airplanes they yell GERONIMO!!! for courage. But for the average Joe Six Pack American who gets into flamenco it might take a while before they develop the language skills to actually say 'Ger-uun-deeno' with a quasi Spanish accent, so if they blurt out" GERONIMO was a guitar maker in AL-MARIA" in front of more seasoned veterans, they risk being embarrassed. So the "safe word" became RAY-ES.

You can say RAY-ES with an American or for that matter British accent and still be clear about which maker you are talking about. Imagine a guy walking into a guitar store and saying you got any GERONIMOS!? The clerks would recoil in laughter and fall on the floor.

"Sorry sir, what did you just say Guantanamo, was it?"

Customer: "No I said GERONIMO, you got any of them GERONIMOS guitars?"

Clerk: "At this time we have none is stock, if you mean Gerundeeeno?"

Customer: "Oh yeah , I mean that Hair-un-deeno, yes that is him the guy from All-maria."

Clerk: "Hmm well yes, we have trouble stocking Gerundino's, very rare today. However I can call our London branch store and see if they have any Almerian instruments. I can have one sent over post haste."

Customer: "Nah I had ma heart set on seeing one today. I feel impulsive and want to buy flamenco guitar NOW and get out there in the mix and begin learning the moves that will have me ripping my shirt off in a Whoerga. "

Clerk: "Sorry sir, no such luck today, but if you have the impulse to buy a flamenco guitar on the spot I'm sure we can offer you many other choices. Would you like to see our exclusive 'Reyes Copy Room TM'? Come with me, it is just down the hall. We have 50 Reyes models in stock at all times, from all points of the globe. Very popular model, and every Reyes model we sell comes with a free Vicente Amigo poster, and special Vicente Amigo thumb lube. You put a dab of it on the neck of the guitar and plunge your thumb into it to keep you from creating a friction fire when you see how fast the Reyes model will automatically make your burdones hum. May I recommend this entry level Reyes which is made in Pakistan, but to very strict GAL plan standards? It comes with an official certificate which states that it is officially a Reyes model and is signed posthumously by Senator Jesse Helms and Winston Churchill. You know it's a little known fact that Churchill himself played flamenco guitar to relax during breaks in the talks at Yalta. Our firm strongly suspects that were a Reyes model in production at that time in history that Sir Winston would have chosen it as his preferred instrument."

Customer: "My GOD son, no need to call the London office you just sold me on that Reyes model! Where do I sign the papers?"

Clerk: "Right this way sir, I'll escort you to the financial suite. Gigi will see to it you have 100% interest free payments and a happy ending and a coffee."

Customer "GERONIMO!! Reyes model you're my baby now! I'm jumping into flamenco!"


_________________________________________________________________________________

And that is the real truth, I swear.

Now would you like to invest in some Condeminuims? I have tract of land in South Florida upon which I am going to build luxury Condeminiums. I'm seeking investors now and you can get in on the ground floor if you send me a check this week.

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ORIGINAL: krichards

I don't get it either. Why would a professional luthier seek to build a reputation making copies?

On the other hand almost all flamenco guitars are based on 5 brace or 7 brace fans, for the soundboard. Variations might include closing braces, asymmetric braces, bridge patches etc, but basically there is not too much room for making a unique design. So we are almost certain to be copying someone else to some degree.

But there is no such thing as a 'Reyes design'.
As I understand it Reyes, like all makers, made changes from time to time.

There are sure to be others on this forum who know more about this, I think.

But selling Reyes copies? Not for me thankyou.

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From this Pakistani, I like your post. Some interesting ideas. I find the naming conventions an interesting thought, one that I had not given much thought to. That will stick with me for a while.

Your redneck American schtick is lame, cheapens a very thought provoking and intellectually sound argument.

Thanks for the knowledge drop again good builder. That's twice and I feel honored that you share your hard earned wisdom. --Riz

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Images of a fat Ruben Diaz wearing a brightly coloured shirt with a mullett that hangs down to his waist will be adorned all around the world.

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ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

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Images of a fat Ruben Diaz wearing a brightly coloured shirt with a mullett that hangs down to his waist will be adorned all around the world.

And he will have a collection of 56 Rolls Royce, that his followers have given him.

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Like every other human endeavor, it's easier to copy and incrementally show improvements vs. following your own path.

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ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

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Like every other human endeavor, it's easier to copy and incrementally show improvements vs. following your own path.

I understand this to be totally incorrect. It's actually much more difficult to get into the head of a master builder and try to emulate his techniques as a definition of propio sello. Anyone can copy a plan but the voicing is the main deciding factor that wins out.

I don't know how long you've been playing or building but what you post here does not sound like you are a builder.

Anyway, there are generations of master builders that have been copied, Ramirez, Conde Hermanos, Barbero, Arcangel Fernandez, and many others who have given us a path to excellence, as many of todays builders have all started their learning process from those who have gone before them.

But if what you are saying is that any novice builder who chooses to learn on his own, has a harder road to travel, then I agree, as it took me a long time, until I got enough sense to learn from the masters of Antiquity.

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"Anyone can copy a plan but the voicing is the main deciding factor that wins out." Voicing is not re-inventing the wheel, so to speak. But is, to borrow your phrase good sir, fine tuning an instrument. The guitar construction itself has not been completely altered or taken some radical new form.

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ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear


But I'm all for other builders experimenting with new designs, as well as traditional motif. All I'm saying is that to reach the highest level of any art is to know its fullness of purpose. And this is to encapsulate a master's intent, if possible.

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I understand this to be totally incorrect. It's actually much more difficult to get into the head of a master builder and try to emulate his techniques as a definition of propio sello. Anyone can copy a plan but the voicing is the main deciding factor that wins out.

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All pieces of wood are different and so, its the builders work to balance this out. IMO, because wood is so different, totally copying an instrument is impossible and its better to learn how to work different pieces of wood and learn how to balance things out. But thats just me.

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And of course, it's always possible that we make a better copy than the original, the first time out.

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Anyways, copying or not copying. The important thing is what the builder does.

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ORIGINAL: keith

i am amazed there are almost no guitars built which are patterned after conde. i have only seen or read about one which was a navarro student guitar that a member had purchased almost two years ago. one would kinda of expect something by now.