Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"?

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Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"?

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wiking

Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

Why does my brand new Navarro look k...

Hey guys, so I've gotten a lovely new Navarro student flamenca blanca and it seems to have survived transit in one piece. It sounds good to my ear, but the one thing I've noticed about it is that the notch for the nut, the area around the bridge and a few other spots have kind of a "choppy" appearance, the cuts look not very smooth, but is this acceptable? I'm used to assembly-line Fenders and Gibsons where everything lines up 100% perfectly, and this is my first flamenco from a luthier, so I understand the instrument is handmade and therefore each will have its own little imperfections... I'm just making sure that the one I got didn't slip quality control or anything. As far as I can tell it's all aethetic little things and the feel when I play it is really good. Is this common in sub-$2000 guitars? Thanks.

Here is a photo of the nut where I feel it could have been better done, especially for the price I paid (My $600 Taylor is immaculate in these areas).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 0:29:28

wiking

Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

This is the flecking on the bridge.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 0:51:06

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

At least if the glue is squeezing out you know they used enough!

Just wait until you get your first scratches on the face. Post the close up pictures here and wait for 70 people to tell you you need to get the top replaced. Then three people will tell you to ignore the scratches and take more lessons. Two people will advise cleaning up your technique so you don't make any extra movements and you play naturally and without stress. Then one guy will just tell you to quit flamenco before it consumes your life and you waste all your money going to Spain to see shows and buying guitars.

Who will you listen to?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 3:20:57

wiking

Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to estebanana)

Hahaha, too true.

I take it, then, that all of this is noncritical and this is just the way these guitars come sometimes? The bridge thing doesn't bother me but I was quite surprised to see the nut cut with what appears to be a corkscrew. I'm just used to a clean nut groove, looks like it's not well secured in there but she stays in tune, plays well and intonates fine too. Maybe I should stop looking at the guitar and play the thing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 3:55:23

JuanDaBomb

Posts: 189
Joined: May 18 2011

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

I have a Paracho guitar that came with the nut groove like that, maybe even more so. It fell out the first time I changed the strings and nicked the finish on the top. I actually get a laugh out of it now even though at the time I was pretty miffed.

How does it feel otherwise? Not too stiff in either hand, proper string heights, things like that? Do you have any other flamenco guitars you can compare it to?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 6:41:15

Joan Maher

Posts: 213
Joined: Dec. 3 2013

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

How much did you pay for it? The nut is very sloppy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 8:37:57

escot

Posts: 28
Joined: Jan. 2 2013

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to Joan Maher)

Sad to see these imperfections coming out of the Navarro shop. I'm not sure if you got too great of a deal on this one for these reasons or what because my Navarro concert has perfect craftsmanship. I ordered directly from Francisco though so maybe that has something to do with it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 9:37:52

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

I think Stephen summed it up perfectly.

The way I estimate the situation is that this maker provides you with properties in terms of response that you may otherwise expect from builds for distinctively higher price tag.
The occasional trade off could be less meticulous joining or cosmetic flaws, but that should be worth it for you who seeks an instrument that shall inspire playing wise and sonically.

And finally there is some weird circumstance with visually intriguing guitars.
I don´t see most of its beauty while holding them in hands, as all I see is maybe the neck and head. Even if standing before a mirror all my eyes note will be my own hands.

To enjoy all of its visual aesthetics I need to put it on a stand first (, lean back and at best smoke a cigarette that I actually havn´t touched since soon to be 2 years now >thirst!<).
...

So in a case like yours maybe don´t put it on a stand, and if, avoid looking at it.
... Until the day that you extensively appreciate its playable and sounding merrits. Then you will embrace it passionately; even with its nuts falling out of slots.

Go for the vibes!

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 9:41:47

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

Don't let people tell you that you can't expect a guitar with acceptable craftmanship,
just because you didn't pay $10.000. That nut part looks like sh!t.
Send it back and tell him he should either inspect his inventory and send you his best one (I'm sure he has a lot of them) or send back your money. period.

You don't buy a guitar to avoid looking at it.
You buy a guitar which you love looking at and playing it.

Oh, and scratches and dings and dongs on flamenco guitars are cool.
Make as many as you can.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 10:16:26

wiking

Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

I'm calling Ron at Memorial Music today guys, to see what he has to say. I'm really kind of surprised that after repeatedly emphasising the fact that I'm buying sight unseen he didn't even bother to mention this. Oh my. Other than that he was good to do business with and others have said lots of good things about him, so we will see what he has to say.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 11:12:33

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to Arash)

I agree , that nut looks awful , he not doing himself any favors letting guitars like that out of his place .... I think you should start by contacting the seller with these pics and let him know your not happy about his level of inspection of instruments leaving .

see what he comes back with first . spend what you spend but you entitled to a certain level of craftsmanship . I took a plastic nut out of my old guitar from cordoba and replaced it with a bone one , this was all done in my garden shed with a 2 files big and small and a bit of emery paper ..didnt take too long and would have no problems showing the result to our top foro luthiers here ...its just fine and 100% better that that ill fitting photo.
It looks like he used a bought in standard nut , squared off at the bottom so not taking into account the neck angle , you may even find a shim under there if you lifted it out .

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 11:21:04

wiking

Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

After having it for an evening and sleeping on it, I doubt a 1200 dollar Almansa 447 would have had these issues. Just saying. It sounds and plays well, but not 1100 Canadian dollars well.

I would be weary of recommending anyone buy sight unseen from the Navarro workshop at this point. Unfortunately, I had no choice, since flamenco guitars are not stocked anywhere in my province.

This sucks. If I were anything less than obsessed with flamenco music I would be very discouraged at this point. I go to lengths to find a guitar after meticulously researching every possible maker, factory and "luthier", and this is what I get.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 11:52:26

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

its not too late ,, still time to contact them .still time to send it back ...still time to do a deal ...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 12:18:29

wiking

Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

Could this even be repaired? It looks like there's been too much material removed from the bottom of the nut slot as well as the fretboard side where it doesn't make contact. UGH.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 12:19:18

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

While the issues at hand are probably fine and not affecting the guitar except aesthetically (not saying it's right), I've never seen much consistency from the Navarro shop. You're not the first to make a post here regarding issues with Navarro's, while others seem to get a great guitar. The one I tried was unplayable from an action standpoint and may as well have been a classical.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 12:36:40

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

I'm usually on the luthier's side with these things (though Navarro himself didn't make the guitar in this case) and some small imperfections can sometimes be charming (such as the small plane mark left on the headstock of Sabicas' Barbero that Brune notes in the plan).

But when it comes to the nut and saddle fitting well, sloppiness is quite a bit less appealing and often unacceptable.

I think if you really like the guitar you should keep it. There are certain things that a luthier could do to make that nut more snug.

But the fact that it wasn't made by Navarro himself makes it perfectly reasonable to return this if it bothers you a lot.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 12:47:48

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

There are indeed certain things that can be done with that nut ...but you shouldnt have to .. not with a new guitar ...I think if he went into the shop and played it and saw that and any other things it would be .....find me another guitar , or , if you sort these problems out I will buy it ...
The fact that it comes sight unseen by post does not change anything at all , least of all his expectations of having a quality instrument.

what would happen if i got a guitar from you Andy? , and brought it back in a few days with a slight workmanship issue ?....
what would you do ?

Any Luthier that let that one slip out , would apologize , thanks for bringing it to my attention ., get right on it ..return the guitar , as it should be ...
everyone happy , reputation saved ...as it should be ...

Maybe Navarro should be directed to this thread ....its his reputation after all .....

I still. say contact them and see which way they will go on this ....they can have first choice ,... thats fair too ...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 13:13:34

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

I have seen lots of odd imperfections like this even on very expensive master luthier guitars. Only thing that matters if functionality of the tool....sound and feel, are affected. Considering hand made instruments are more charming than machine cut assembly line instruments, I agree that little imperfections like this are "charming".

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 14:15:37

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

Ricardo is right.

This is very common on guitars from small shops, especially if they are not the 1A
models. I would play it and see how it plays, you might trade it back for one that
looks nicer but doesn't play as well.

For the price you pay for a Student Navarro, it's not going to be perfect.

Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 14:27:40

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to Ricardo)

I dont think so ...that little imperfection is not charming at all ,, its one of those things that would bug many people ...
I dont see why you cant have a guitar that plays well (for its price) and is well finished ,.
Surely that is a basic requirement,.. things that are 'charming' are usually knots or lines in the wood , or strange grain things , that dont effect sound or strengh of course . ,
This is not one of those things, its just being lazy and not paying attention,

I would write a cheque for that guitar and leave a 0 off the end of the price ..

'' .. sorry wasnt paying attention when writing the cheque , still you can cash it just the same ....''

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 16:38:09

Joan Maher

Posts: 213
Joined: Dec. 3 2013

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

When I look at the poor workmanship on the nut I wonder how sloppy is the internal workmanship.

I had a 3f model from Ricardo Sanchis Carpio some years ago and it was an excellent guitar soundwise and craft wise..

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Joan Josep Maher

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 16:46:02

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

Also If Wiking should decide to resell this guitar later on ebay, the forum or whereever, and buy a better guitar in one or two years, have fun with the headaches and good luck trying to convince potential buyers that Nut part is charming.

It should be possible for the seller to give the guy a good looking and well
sounding guitar with good playability. Its not like there are not enough of these Navarro student guitars available. There should be one in his stock which plays and sounds well with cleaner workmanship

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 17:02:30

wiking

Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to Joan Maher)

I will say here that the internals look much better than the externals- all the braces are perfectly smooth, no running wood glue, nice clean joins, looks very well done inside. I still am waiting for Ron to get into the shop so I can call.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 17:21:12

el carbonero

Posts: 295
Joined: Jun. 23 2007

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

what the problem ?

Cheap guitar = cheap finish .

That's just normal.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 17:50:19

wiking

Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to el carbonero)

What planet are you from that 1000 dollars is "cheap"? 900 USD = 986 Canadian + $101 Canadian UPS B.S. brokerage charges = $1100 Canadian I spent on this. A cheap guitar is a 350 dollar Yamaha. Funnily, I doubt those would have issues like this, I've never encountered a roughed-out Yamaha in 15 years of playing.

It really bothers me how a lot of people on this forum consider anything less than a $6000 Conde a cheap guitar. I'm a broke engineering student- I saved for this guitar and it took a while to get the funds. I wish people would stop insulting me by telling me that the price is insignificant. Just because it has nylon strings doesn't mean it shouldn't be held to the same standard as other acoustic guitars, factory or not.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 18:02:02

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

How does it play, how does it sound? Good, excellent, average? Secondly, are there any structural weaknesses that will leading it to self-destruct in a few years? If the guitar sounds good and plays well and isn't a candidate for implosion, you have yourself a deal. If it sounds and plays bad, it's a bad guitar even if it was made to NASA tolerances.

I remember Benito Huipe saying in his videotape that they used to use ropes and rocks and things to clamp the guitar back in the day. Maybe they still do.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 18:22:11

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

oh great ... now I got a cheap guitar 'cos I have a Yamaha CG171-SF..

Actually its spot on inside and out . a great beginners guitar ...the only thing i did with it , was strangely enough , change the bridge and the nut for bone instead of plastic ,. ..I did that myself ... got a blank bone nut and carved it , filed slots and fitted it just fine .
and here it is ......non- luthier nut ....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 19:04:16

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

quote:

Just because it has nylon strings doesn't mean it shouldn't be held to the same standard as other acoustic guitars, factory or not.

I agree but you really should think about the playability and sound, as this is the most important facet to any guitar. If these two are in place, then its possible that about a $100 worth of work might fix those pesky little cosmetic problems.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 19:20:36

wiking

Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Just off the phone with Ron. He was very understanding of my frustration and we decided for me to bring the guitar to a local luthier, get a quote on repairing the nut groove, and Ron would cover the expense. As I said the guitar sounds and plays well, so I'm more inclined to keep this one than start shipping guitars all over the continent on returns and replacements at great expense. I just hope that this can be fixed...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 19:28:42

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking)

Good solution.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2014 19:51:51

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