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RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"?   You are logged in as Guest
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rojarosguitar

Posts: 243
Joined: Dec. 8 2010
 

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking

Good solution, I find too, if you are otherwise content.
The finish of the nut is at a very low level of handicraft at all possible prices. (the glue at the bridge is not so uncommon and would be less distressing for me).

And I doubt these guitars are anything hand made at this price, so this is just bad manufacturing and it would be wrong not to let the maker know it that you know.

I have a 'cheap' flamenca from Mundo Flamenco in Freiburg and it is really well finished (almost, apart from some small laquer issues). All parts are fitting very well.

I think this kind of bad work was already once a reason why spanish guitars became of less demand than Japanese guitars.

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Music is a big continent with different lascapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

A good musical instrument is one that inspires one to express as free as possible
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 29 2014 20:03:14
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to rojarosguitar

Ah,
Here's what you got, a bit of an education in buying guitars. There's a learning curve in buying flamenco guitars. And I bet if you check back in a few months you'll be playing your guitar and will hardly remember the things you feel are troubles.

You mentioned you're an engineering student, often the things that catch the eye of one person will not bother another person. So the precision of the Taylor guitars agree with you. But here's the deal, the Taylor factory in San Diego CA is set up so the workers assemble pieces cut by computer guided routers. The workers don't have to have any special knowledge of guitar making, they are gluing parts together and moving them to the next assembly section. That is for the $600.00 models.

The parts are perfect at the Taylor factory and each parts looks exactly like the 400 parts of the same part of the guitar they cut that week. The parts were put together by the same team, which work around the clock, the Taylor factory has at least two maybe three shifts last time I checked, regular day shift, night shift and swing shift. The workers get a scale of about $12.00 her hour to start at Taylor. They punch in and punch out. The factory makes all levels of guitars, but the workers that do the majority of the assembly are not luthiers, they are assemblers who put together pre cut parts.

In Paracho they still make the guitar pretty much by hand, but in some houses they make them one by one and in some houses they make several at once, but the difference is in Paracho the guitars are made by small shops, compared to Taylor and they don't have the parts precut by computers. The cutting is done by guys at band saws and table saws and now days they have thickness sanders.

But here is the main thing, you may find the details sloppy, but the intent and time spent on the thickness of the top, bridge weight, fan bracing, neck angle, accuracy of intonation is still quite good quality work over seen by if not carried out by, an actual luthier. They are not working with pristine parts, they are working fast, but they are also paying attention as much as possible to the factors that make your guitar feel correct as a flamenco guitar under your hands.

I did not hear you mention the action was unbearable, or that the intonation was horrible, or the wood was deeply flawed. Or that the neck was super bumpy. You did say the structural integrity of the guitar was good. You basically got a hand made guitar over seen and probably partially built by a luthier who has a good touch for top thickness and bracing for $1000.00.

You can see it for what it is, a hand made thing in a world where machine cut perfection is the rule. You bought a piece of a persons judgement and labor, whereas, (not saying it's bad) if you buy a Taylor you buy a computer guided routers accuracy, but it lacks the judgement and oversight of a guitar maker who understands how flamenco guitars should feel.

Congratulations, you bought into humanity and all it's imperfections- and after all the saving and planning you bought from a dealer who has scruples and pride in the product he carries. He is helping you by continuing to support the line he carries even after you gave him your hard earned money. Taylor would have done the same thing too, I have done warranty work on Taylor's and they give great repair support. But do they make guitars as flamenca as the guys in Paracho? Probably not.

Mazel tov!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 29 2014 21:11:36
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to rojarosguitar

well there you go ... and also guitars may be looked at a bit better before they leave now ....
now clean the slot out and make a nut fit it ...any luthier could do that and make it nice ...
the bridge thing wouldnt bother me so much , that may be one of those 'charming ' things that make your guitar unique .. just polish it up and bring out the grain for all to see ...

the thing that will happen is when it gets its first real Ding in it somewhere ..even though you are so careful ....
My first ding happened in the top , off the corner of a chair ...its small but bugged me for weeks ...my own fault it was so no-one to blame there ...now though I would have to search around to find it for you .....

Hey when all this is sorted I hope we will get a vid of the guitar and owner in perfect harmony .....close up of bridge and nut of course ....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 29 2014 21:26:33
 
flamencositar

 

Posts: 76
Joined: Aug. 8 2012
 

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Ah,
Here's what you got, a bit of an education in buying guitars. There's a learning curve in buying flamenco guitars. And I bet if you check back in a few months you'll be playing your guitar and will hardly remember the things you feel are troubles.

You mentioned you're an engineering student, often the things that catch the eye of one person will not bother another person. So the precision of the Taylor guitars agree with you. But here's the deal, the Taylor factory in San Diego CA is set up so the workers assemble pieces cut by computer guided routers. The workers don't have to have any special knowledge of guitar making, they are gluing parts together and moving them to the next assembly section. That is for the $600.00 models.

The parts are perfect at the Taylor factory and each parts looks exactly like the 400 parts of the same part of the guitar they cut that week. The parts were put together by the same team, which work around the clock, the Taylor factory has at least two maybe three shifts last time I checked, regular day shift, night shift and swing shift. The workers get a scale of about $12.00 her hour to start at Taylor. They punch in and punch out. The factory makes all levels of guitars, but the workers that do the majority of the assembly are not luthiers, they are assemblers who put together pre cut parts.

In Paracho they still make the guitar pretty much by hand, but in some houses they make them one by one and in some houses they make several at once, but the difference is in Paracho the guitars are made by small shops, compared to Taylor and they don't have the parts precut by computers. The cutting is done by guys at band saws and table saws and now days they have thickness sanders.

But here is the main thing, you may find the details sloppy, but the intent and time spent on the thickness of the top, bridge weight, fan bracing, neck angle, accuracy of intonation is still quite good quality work over seen by if not carried out by, an actual luthier. They are not working with pristine parts, they are working fast, but they are also paying attention as much as possible to the factors that make your guitar feel correct as a flamenco guitar under your hands.

I did not hear you mention the action was unbearable, or that the intonation was horrible, or the wood was deeply flawed. Or that the neck was super bumpy. You did say the structural integrity of the guitar was good. You basically got a hand made guitar over seen and probably partially built by a luthier who has a good touch for top thickness and bracing for $1000.00.

You can see it for what it is, a hand made thing in a world where machine cut perfection is the rule. You bought a piece of a persons judgement and labor, whereas, (not saying it's bad) if you buy a Taylor you buy a computer guided routers accuracy, but it lacks the judgement and oversight of a guitar maker who understands how flamenco guitars should feel.

Congratulations, you bought into humanity and all it's imperfections- and after all the saving and planning you bought from a dealer who has scruples and pride in the product he carries. He is helping you by continuing to support the line he carries even after you gave him your hard earned money. Taylor would have done the same thing too, I have done warranty work on Taylor's and they give great repair support. But do they make guitars as flamenca as the guys in Paracho? Probably not.

Mazel tov!



Estebanana,

Wow! What a fantastic post, good sir! That is some serious knowledge drop.

I believe this made by either Marlon (Poncho's son.) and or another member of the clan. Navarro works on the higher end instruments almost exclusively these days. I have a Poncho's Reyes Flamenca Negra, and no workmanship issues what so ever. I know 2 different models, blah blah... But my point is, Poncho does good work.

Op, call Ron and get it squared away if it sucks donkey butt.

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Still the body, quiet the mind, free the soul
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 29 2014 23:34:55
 
wiking

 

Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014
 

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to estebanana

This is a fantastic post, and really makes me think about the guitar differently. It's really a great little guitar, absolutely rips when I dig in a bit and play fast, just the right amount of buzz at the attack of a note, raspiness, smooth neck, perfect action...... It's taken a day but I've convinced myself this guitar is really a keeper. It's my first luthier instrument so I mean, bear with me as I learn the ropes around here, haha.

I'm willing to bet the luthier I take it to tomorrow will have a chuckle and tell me if the guitar plays properly I wouldn't want to endanger changing anything about it with a new nut and nut groove finishing, even if it would look slightly neater... But I will be bringing it to him for him to inspect to make sure it's structurally sound, a check-up if you will. Then with his blessing I'll carry on learning and stop complaining about stray chisel marks.

This thread was enlightening and I changed my mind on it like 5 times but I'm mostly of a mind to leave it alone at this point, unless the luthier I'm meeting tomorrow assures me he can make that gouge go away without any too-serious operation on the nut groove. Thanks all for your thoughts.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 30 2014 2:22:33
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to wiking

quote:

It really bothers me how a lot of people on this forum consider anything less than a $6000 Conde a cheap guitar.


Even as a poor college student, I considered a 5K Conde a mid priced guitar, and a much better instrument than Ramirez in the same price range... but neither in the caliber of fine classical guitars such as Hauser, Fleta, etc. Having to spend every dime I had on a nice flamenco guitar was a no brainer. One class mate laughed at my teacher's 4k guitar as being "expensive" as her little flute was 10k. So get over it man, you're going to be an engineer.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 30 2014 4:30:45
 
wiking

 

Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014
 

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to Ricardo

True enough, can't wait to graduate.

Also, just wanted to say I checked out your music page, great stuff man.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 30 2014 10:56:50
 
Turner

 

Posts: 81
Joined: Nov. 5 2011
 

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to rojarosguitar

So now a couple of weeks have gone by.
Did you take the guitar to a luthier?
Did he fix the nut slot?
Details man, details!
We need to know the end of the story.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2014 17:04:55
 
Joan Maher

 

Posts: 213
Joined: Dec. 3 2013
 

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to El Kiko

quote:

Yamaha CG171-SF


The Yamaha CG171-SF was a great entry level flamenco guitar - the best entry level I Played was the Ricardo Sanchis 3F which was well priced in the 1990's never understood why he stopped making them.

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Joan Josep Maher
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2014 17:17:21
 
wiking

 

Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014
 

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to Turner

So here's what I decided on:


I took it to a luthier and he had a chuckle and sat with it and played. And he said:

"Well, it is perfectly intonated, the action is fantastic, the frets are immaculately dressed, it's got just a hint of "buzz"... So why would you want me to change this?"

He also showed me how the nut, while it looks odd at the end in the photo, is actually sitting perfectly flat along the base of the nut groove, makes perfect contact with the "lip" of the headstock behind it and has a uniform, slight gap between it and the fretboard, which he said is no real issue. He said he could easily pull out the nut, fashion a new one, put it back in so it "looks" better in the groove, but then I'd walk away with less money in my pocket and a guitar that, at best, will still only play as well as it did before the "repair". He told me to relax, that he recommends coming back to see him when the nut actually needs replacing and he'll clean it up, and that there's nothing out of place or poorly executed where it matters. The little "dip" in the groove is only on one side from a slightly misplaced chisel. It really does look worse in my photo than it does in real life, it's barely noticeable.

I left well enough alone and now spend my energy on tight arpeggios and smooth rasgueados rather than worrying about cosmetic nonissues. Happy as a clam, but I'm sure some snob will chime in and tell me how he'd never accept such a travesty on his instrument and etc, etc. Save it, I'm happy.

I then called Ron back and did the honest thing and told him that since I'm no longer going to have the guitar serviced, he no longer needs to send me a refund to cover it. Integrity.

Case closed!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 14 2014 2:51:02
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to rojarosguitar

Told ja so. You got a good deal. Haha

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 14 2014 3:33:33
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to rojarosguitar

And you got an upright luthier there too!
Seems to be a very decent person.

Enjoy your new axe!

Ruphus

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 14 2014 8:21:32
 
rojarosguitar

Posts: 243
Joined: Dec. 8 2010
 

RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to rojarosguitar

Well, if you are content, then everything is fine. Enjoy the guitar in good health!

_____________________________

Music is a big continent with different lascapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

A good musical instrument is one that inspires one to express as free as possible
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2014 15:33:02
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