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Spanish Village called "Kill the Jews"
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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 RE: Spanish Village called "Kil... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
A charming legacy, isn't it? But what country wasn't founded on ethnic cleansing? The US, the country with which I'm most familiar, certainly was.
I don't think countries are founded on ethnic cleansing policies, or at least the US was not. At the start of the republic the founding fathers were interested in integrating the Indian nations into the matrix of the society. George Washington spoke about it.
The US founders were not using policies of ethnic cleaning to found the nation. Quite the opposite, slavery is complex and sad part of the birth of the nation. Only later when the concept of manifest destiny and the populist revolution of moving westward did the killing of Native American's or indigenous peoples begin in a systemic way.
The president who's portrait is found on the US twenty dollar bill is the one who really pushed for the horrific idea of wiping out Indians. The founders were interested in co-existence and did not formulate policy based on ethnic cleansing. All men are created equal applied to the Indian nations, but not to Black slaves - and black slaves were subjected to a ethic ridicule, but not sought out and killed. Slavery was kind of genocide, it killed many hundreds of thousands if not millions, but it was not the intention of the founders to do it as political policy. It was a by product of commerce. The founders accepted the death of slaves as collateral losses to do business. Just because slavey and the human misery is caused was by product of commerce does not make it any better, but it's one of those areas where you have look closely at what is intentional and happens due to circumstances and the morals and ethics of the time period. It was morally and ethically wrong but different than ethnic cleansing in our modern sense of understanding.
Not all the founders were pro-slavery, but that idea was not contested politically until the Civil War. I think the country was founded on a false premise that all men are created equal and that real active policy genocide did not happen until later. The indian/white wars in the beginning of the nation were not about wiping out indians. They were complex territorial affairs which had to do with border disputes between the French and non French settlers in the Americas and indians choose sides and fought on the side of whom ever they thought would create treaties in their best interest.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Apr. 16 2014 2:27:16
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Spanish Village called "Kil... (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
I look at wiki sometimes, but I feel books in libraries and time to contrast a compare ideas through careful reading is more valuable and correct.
I'm with you on the subject of Wikipedia, Stephen. It gets many things correct, of course; but it is wrong, or at best incomplete, in its discussion of a subject often enough to warrant the designation of being an Encyclopedia of Misinformation.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Apr. 16 2014 3:33:33
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Spanish Village called "Kil... (in reply to estebanana)
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I think the Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire in Mexico is as interesting for the reactions it elicits today from those who study its history as it is for the encounter it represented at the time it occurred. I would argue that the Spanish have gotten a bad rap, relative to the Aztecs they conquered.
In considering the Aztecs (they called themselves "Mexica," thus the name Mexico), it is well to remember they ruled an empire. Within the context of their world, both physical and mental, they were every bit as much an "imperial" power as was Spain after the conquest. The Mexica exacted tribute from the subjects they ruled, and they required thousands of individuals be brought forth from those they ruled (such as the Tlacalla) for the ritual sacrifices they performed almost daily. Within the context of their world, limited though it was, I fail to see that they can claim any sort of "moral superiority" over the Spanish just because the Spanish came a much greater distance across the Atlantic to subject the Mexica (Aztecs) to the very same rule that the Aztecs themselves imposed on their subjects.
It has been said that the Aztecs' requirements of tribute and individuals for sacrifice from their subject groups, such as the Tlacalla, cannot be judged by today's standards. The Aztecs, it is said, must be judged by their own cultural lights and the era in which they thrived. I agree with this point of view. We should not impose the values we hold today on the Aztecs of the 15th and 16th centuries. By the same token, however, in order to be consistent, we should not impose the values we hold today on the Spanish of the 15th and 16th centuries either. The Spanish were just as much a product of their culture and era at the time as were the Aztecs. Neither, it seems to me, have a claim to moral superiority over the other.
Finally, it should be remembered that the 600 Spaniards who accompanied Cortes to the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan and the conquest of Moctezuma and the Aztecs were augmented by approximately 30,000 Tlacalla who wanted to throw off Aztec rule. In summary, I agree with the idea of accepting cultural relativity and being non-judgmental concerning other societies and cultures such as the Aztecs, but it must be applied equally to those such as the Spanish, who were just as much products of their culture and era.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Apr. 16 2014 16:54:05
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Spanish Village called "Kil... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
Bill, sounds like cultural relativism. Wrong is wrong, no? (Nadal speech pattern for tennis players)
Absolutely, Miguel. It is indeed cultural relativism. (I have always considered myself an amateur anthropologist, and my wife has a doctorate in anthropology.) My point is that if one applies cultural relativism to absolve the Aztecs of their imperial misdeeds, in order to be consistent one must apply it equally to the Spanish. If, as you say, "Wrong is wrong," it was just as wrong for the Aztecs to impose themselves upon others as it was for the Spanish. On the other hand, if we are applying cultural relativism to absolve one of the parties, we must use it to absolve both. Either "wrong is wrong" for both, or cultural relativism absolves both of their imperial misdeeds. We can't apply a double standard to absolve the Aztecs of their misdeeds and condemn the Spanish for theirs and consider ourselves consistent.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Apr. 16 2014 18:00:32
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Spanish Village called "Kil... (in reply to tijeretamiel)
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"Tlacallans"
Are these the same as the Tlaxcalans? If memory serves correctly,Tlaxcala, although not nearly as powerful, nor the ruler of as extensive an empire, was never conquered and made subject to the "Aztecs", though there was a long running history of warfare by the time Cortez arrived. Nor were the Tarascans of Michoacan conquered by the Mexica, though both Tlaxcala and the Tarascans were pretty well surrounded by Mexican territory.
According to what the inhabitants told the Spaniards, there were five relatively civilized city-states around the Lago de Texcoco in the valley of Mexico. These were founded by Nahua speaking people who arrived from the north.
The Mexica were the last of the Nahuatl people to arrive in the valley, and proved to be quite troublesome to the earlier inhabitants.
After rebelling against the city of Culhuacan, which had employed them as mercenaries, the Mexica took up residence in the middle of the lake on the floating island tenampas they built. Tenampas can still be seen at the "floating gardens" of Xochimilco, southeast of Mexico City, in the Valley of Mexico.
The causeways that led from the shore to the Mexica city of Tenochtitlan can still be seen in main thoroughfares like the Avenida Insurgentes, the Paseo de la Reforma and the Puente de Alvarado.
The Aztecs grew in population and military power. They allied themselves with two of the cities on the lake shore in 1428. The Mexica soon dominated the alliance, and expanded their territories rapidly. They usually left in place the rulers of the people they conquered, as long as they were regularly paid the tribute demanded.
The "Aztec Empire" had existed for less than a hundred years when Cortez showed up in 1520.
Although the Tlaxcalans allied themselves with Cortez against their historical enemies, it took the Spaniards more than a century to pacify Michoacan.
Cultural relativism:
As an Air Force brat I lived in a number of different places, but returned to Texas most summers. From this I learned the "the way it's supposed to be" differs considerably from place to place. Subsequent experience in Latin America, Europe, Asia and Oceania substantially reinforced this experience.
What I took away from it was not that we should never judge foreign cultures for their faults--every culture has its faults--rather that we should regard our own with a healthy degree of skepticism.
RNJ
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Date Apr. 16 2014 21:52:31
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Spanish Village called "Kil... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
Stephen, thanks for the in-depth post, as always (understand I was being facetious with criticizing you for... criticizing... wikipedia. Wikipedia may have glaring errors from time to time, but as Anders pointed out, most knowledge floating in the minds of people are just as flawed, so until there's a better and more authoritative way to document history--). Yo
I disagree here, Wikipedia has glaring errors quite frequently- and it's difficult to tell when someone is being facetious. Even though I read pretty well, it's often very hard to glean from the context alone in alone talks what it meant to be sarcastic and what it dead earnest. I usually take things to be more earnest because if you are wrong about the posters intent it's less messy. Had I known you were facetious I would have just said "Uhuh."
Knowledge 'floating in the minds of people' is what it is. Some of it is wrong according to you, or Anders, but the differnce between being on a discussion group and reading Wiki is that the Wiki articles are basically non discursive with you. The people who have strange ideas floating their heads are on discussion groups because they are interested in discourse. So you can state a different to pinion if you want.
All I'm really saying about Wiki is that its not a decider, it's just another source. The same as a library is not a decider, it's place to gather and create a synthesis of information in your brain.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Apr. 16 2014 23:03:23
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